TheJediBrah
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True. Watson + Bevan in for Gilchrist + Symonds strengthens the bowling and solidifies the batting, but loses a bit of explosiveness with the batting and weakens fielding.
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
srbhkshk
International Captain
You also lose the only real keeper in that team, which ain't that great imo.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
That will be even easier to improve.
TheJediBrah
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I'm more than happy having ABdV keep for 50 overs. His keeping was better than people give him credit for.
Dhoni for Bevan/Symonds is fine too. Definitely doesn't weaken the team. There are plenty of permutations that are about the same, but as the last page or 2 shows, it largely comes down to personal preference.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Forcing ABD to keep is ridiculous, he has never kept against even a half-decent spinner, nor was he anywhere near as good as Gilly against the pacers. And what's more he didn't enjoy it personally, ABD keeping is the kinda thing that would make the team look grand on paper and then you wonder how you are losing 3 games in a row against crap sides.
TheJediBrah
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I would never force anyone to do anything against their will
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Pretty much this. Kapil's final ODI record hardly presents a story of the kind of cricketer he was. His batting average was above his bowling average until late 1991, when he had played around 170 matches. That is 13 years into his career. It then went into steep decline in the last 3 years.
For a decade, Kapil was conceding runs around 3.6 per over with the ball and scoring over a run a ball with the bat. That is insane. No one else brought a better combination of economical bowling and destructive batting to the field. Kapil is the best ODI allrounder for me, though the likes of Pollock, Imran, Watson, Flintoff and Klusener are up there as well.
aussie tragic
International Captain
I thought we started the below ATG white ball thread to stop meaningless discussions in this real ATG thread 
The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread (white ball edition)
Yeah that was an awesome team. Having Klusener, Pollock and Boucher in the middle order, as well as the bowling of Kallis in the top order, was the big differentiator imo. We had 6 guys who were good enough to be picked for most teams as specialist bowlers without compromising on our batting at...
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h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Many here (including me) have forgotten about the existence of that thread lol.
aussie tragic
International Captain
So does that mean white ball threads align with white ball games...interesting and fast moving but easy to forget
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Yep, expect that thread to come back into action now though since you reminded everyone.So does that mean white ball threads align with white ball games...interesting and fast moving but easy to forget
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
I am 50-50 on Flintoff or Kapil for that slot. Kapil is the one who is likely to start scoring very fast though. To me, it is either Flintoff + Pollock or Imran + Kapil. Now that I think about it, I might have Imran at 7 and Kapil at 8, covering all my bases. May promote Kapil to hit out before Imran if it is the slog.
Tahir was ranked the number one bowler in the world when AB was keeping to him. Your standards for half-decent are a tad high. This said, I still wouldnt want him keeping to Murali. He is fine against the quicks. Better than Dhoni, little practical difference compared to Gilchrist in an ODI- less clinical, but more capable of spectacular.
I dont think it matters whether he was a reluctant keeper or not. His win/loss ratio jumps by about 50% when he has the gloves, and his batting average goes up by 50%, with his SR also improving. Averaged over 70 with the gloves at a obscene strike rate, and it didnt seem to really matter if he was keeping in his peak or out of it. If he fails in three consecutive games, he is also winning you the next 8 by averaging 100 at a crazy SR.
I am still giving Dhoni the gloves though, just think your rationale other than the Murali issue is very broken.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Tahir barely turns the ball compared to the spinners here though Bolo, although of course I might be under-rating him as he never did anything against India. And no I don't think he was anywhere near as good as Gilly against the pacers, Boucher was, not ABD.
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He turned the ball a lot when AB was keeping. That said I think he was easy to keep to. A decent keeper should know which way it is going, and he bowled fairly short.
His career has overlapped almost perfectly with Starcs, who some people on CW are calling a candidate for GOAT. He has just about equally good stats (about 10% higher average and 10% better economy), while playing on home grounds he is less suited to. I dont regard him as an ATG, but less than half decent is a claim I would be hesitant to make about a bowler of Jayasuriya's caliber. So yes, you are underrating him.
What you are saying about keeping would make sense in tests. But it is a slightly different skill set in ODIs where speed and athleticism counts to a much higher degree (no slips, saving runs takes on a much bigger role etc). And also where quality of keeping has a much lower impact- a drop is often inconsequential, and actually proves beneficial from time to time.
honestbharani
Whatever it takes!!!
AB was a brilliant keeper. Just because he was even more brilliant at other facets of the game should not take away from that fact.
107 games vs 91. Not a massive gamechanger.
I am not saying that Tahir is a good as Starc. I think there is a gap between them. Just commenting on the difference in gap between GOAT and less than half decent for two guys who have put in such similar performances. At least one of these positions is must be wrong by an outrageous margin.
We all tend to have our perceptions coloured by what we have actually watched.
TheJediBrah
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Starc is actually quite fit for a fast bowler these days, relatively speaking. Missed more games through resting than injury. You might be confusing him with someone else.
I'm the guy who was suggesting having him in ATG side but even I wouldn't call him a "brilliant" keeper. He was very good, but not as good as Dhoni/Gilchrist. Given the chance to focus on it full-time I have little doubt he could have been though.