The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[ankitj]

Wisden test team of the decade: https://www.wisden.com/stories/decade-in-review/podcast-wisdens-mens-test-team-of-the-decade

Wisden ODI team of the decade: https://www.wisden.com/stories/decade-in-review/wisdens-mens-odi-team-of-the-decade

 

[OverratedSanity]

Also, I dont think there will ever be a catching display as good as this Jonty game vs WI. Might be my favourite cricket video on youtube

 

[stephen]

Also, hb, I like you but your opinion on Symonds is a bit based on flawed reasoning.

You discount the statistics for batsmen batting 5-7 because you feel that batsmen should be able to bat 4-7 and that places Symonds lower down the lists. But we're primarily talking about picking him at 6 or possibly 7.

He batted 5 during his 6 year peak almost exclusively which is why his stats in other positions aren't as good so his specific stats for those positions are brought up.

Then within less than a page you mention that someone batting at 5 long term does not display versatility but then say that it does for tests. Which is strange because a test number 5 can basically bat the same way regardless of whether they arrive at the crease at 3/60 or 3/400, while an ODI number 5 has to plan on regularly arriving at the crease at the 10 over mark or the 45 over mark and everything in between. And in ODIs that makes a huge difference to a batsman's strategy.

If you want to poke holes in Symonds' record you need to look no further than his poor home record, even during his peak.

But these are the points in his favour:
- one of the best combinations of average and strike rate for a lower order player
- struck significantly faster than his contemporaries
- was excellent in the field
- has one of the best world cup records
- is a reasonable bowling option
- had a ridiculously huge away/ neutral average

Points against him:
- a poor home record
- not a great bowler (decent but not world beating)
- short peak
- not a keeper (which is important for team balance if you favour Dhoni or Buttler as keeper)

He was a complete ODI package and I imagine that with his skill set he'd have been even more of a beast at T20 cricket.

 

[Spark]

It depends on what you value more ,really. Symonds was the best in the outfield, Ponting was easily the greatest I've ever seen at throwing the stumps down, and Rhodes was the quickest by a distance. In ODIs, I always felt even though Jonty didnt hit the stumps anywhere near as often as Ponting did, his ability to get to the ball and release it in one motion was so good it didnt matter much which is aruably more valuable in the format than the versatility of the other two.

Yeah Ponting was never the quickest (though obviously still fast). It was his anticipation and attack-on-the-ball which always stood out.

FWIW I said "all-round" for a reason. He was world class at every position on the ground, including second slip where Symonds - and many great ring fielders, actually, at least until they adjust - struggled.

Symonds my recollection of is admittedly somewhat hazy, but my overriding sense is that he stood out by making the ridiculously difficult look ridiculously easy. ABdV is probably the current* fielder who is the best comparison point in that sense.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wisden test team of the decade: https://www.wisden.com/stories/decade-in-review/podcast-wisdens-mens-test-team-of-the-decade

Wisden ODI team of the decade: https://www.wisden.com/stories/decade-in-review/wisdens-mens-odi-team-of-the-decade

No strange picks except Steyn in the ODI team. Never thought he was particularly amazing in the format tbh. Very good to be sure and I rate him higher than a lot of people do, but I'd have Morkel ahead of him even among South Africans.

 

[Spark]

No strange picks except Steyn in the ODI team. Never thought he was particularly amazing in the format tbh. Very good to be sure and I rate him higher than a lot of people do, but I'd have Morkel ahead of him even among South Africans.

I do wonder if he suffers a bit because of just how good and how much better he was than everyone else for a time in Tests which made his ODI record, which was still excellent, look somewhat mediocre by comparison. ODI stats are meaningless of course, but a comparable record to Trent Boult and going at <5rpo in this day and age is no mean feat.

 

[Days of Grace]

I always felt that Steyn was the Malcolm Marshall of modern-day bowlers. A leader in tests, one of many good/reasonable quirks in ODIs.

 

[Bolo.]

Yeah Ponting was never the quickest (though obviously still fast). It was his anticipation and attack-on-the-ball which always stood out.

FWIW I said "all-round" for a reason. He was world class at every position on the ground, including second slip where Symonds - and many great ring fielders, actually, at least until they adjust - struggled.

Symonds my recollection of is admittedly somewhat hazy, but my overriding sense is that he stood out by making the ridiculously difficult look ridiculously easy. ABdV is probably the current* fielder who is the best comparison point in that sense.

You meant Ponting, not Jonty? Jontys anticipation was the one thing that sets him ahead of ponting (and all others) for me. Jonty was quicker than most (national hockey player), but he wasnt Olonga level quick. But I had no idea this was true when watching them as a kid- figured out later that it was that he was sometimes moving before the ball even hit the deck that let him cover so much ground.

 

[ankitj]

More people should consider Imran Khan in ODI XIs. You can't find any fault with his ODI record and as 5th bowler he will make the bowling attack just relentless. Here's how my ATG ODI XI with Imran look like:

Tendulkar
Greenidge
Kohli
Richards
De Villiers
Dhoni +
Imran *
Akram
Garner
Muralitharan
McGrath

I could only accommodate McGrath among Aussies in this combination. Usually I play Watson as opener and Bevan at 6. If I'm playing Imran, I would go for second best ODI opener of all time and have no space left for Bevan in lower middle order. I could equally swap Greenidge and Dhoni with Gilchrist and Bevan though.

 

[honestbharani]

Also, hb, I like you but your opinion on Symonds is a bit based on flawed reasoning.

You discount the statistics for batsmen batting 5-7 because you feel that batsmen should be able to bat 4-7 and that places Symonds lower down the lists. But we're primarily talking about picking him at 6 or possibly 7.

He batted 5 during his 6 year peak almost exclusively which is why his stats in other positions aren't as good so his specific stats for those positions are brought up.

Then within less than a page you mention that someone batting at 5 long term does not display versatility but then say that it does for tests. Which is strange because a test number 5 can basically bat the same way regardless of whether they arrive at the crease at 3/60 or 3/400, while an ODI number 5 has to plan on regularly arriving at the crease at the 10 over mark or the 45 over mark and everything in between. And in ODIs that makes a huge difference to a batsman's strategy.

If you want to poke holes in Symonds' record you need to look no further than his poor home record, even during his peak.

But these are the points in his favour:
- one of the best combinations of average and strike rate for a lower order player
- struck significantly faster than his contemporaries
- was excellent in the field
- has one of the best world cup records
- is a reasonable bowling option
- had a ridiculously huge away/ neutral average

Points against him:
- a poor home record
- not a great bowler (decent but not world beating)
- short peak
- not a keeper (which is important for team balance if you favour Dhoni or Buttler as keeper)

He was a complete ODI package and I imagine that with his skill set he'd have been even more of a beast at T20 cricket.

See, I don't want to do a stats break-down. I am not saying he is a bad shout for a second XI. He won't make mine, but I understand if he makes others'. But when you are talking about an ATG ODI XI, you are talking of the best of the best and Symonds just does not cut it over the competition either as a top 5 batsman or as an all-rounder finisher at 6/7. And honestly, I think he belongs in the Flintoff category of guys who needed a bit of time to get set before they can bring out their power game in full flow. Which is why he had his most success at 5 and it took him till 2003 to become consistent. And with a MO of Viv, Virat, AB and MSD, I honestly do not see how Symonds can get into the side. If you wanna continue the argument, we can get into the specific stats. My point of bringing up the 6-7 numbers was to show that there were better options than him for that role in an ATG side. That is all. He was obviously a great ODI player. Not quite ATG in my book, but great nevertheless. Just not someone who will belong in an ATG ODI XI.

 

[honestbharani]

It depends on what you value more ,really. Symonds was the best in the outfield, Ponting was easily the greatest I've ever seen at throwing the stumps down, and Rhodes was the quickest by a distance. In ODIs, I always felt even though Jonty didnt hit the stumps anywhere near as often as Ponting did, his ability to get to the ball and release it in one motion was so good it didnt matter much which is aruably more valuable in the format than the versatility of the other two.

The one thing that most people forget about Jonty is that he basically fielded at a close gully most of the time than regular backward point, or cover point or point. He cut angles so well and saved so many more runs. Sure, he was not the best catcher or the most accurate with run outs but his amazing ability and judgement of hits and the angles he was able to create and cut down as a fielder were so far ahead of anyone else that he just belongs in a category of his own in terms of LO fielding.

 

[Spark]

You meant Ponting, not Jonty? Jontys anticipation was the one thing that sets him ahead of ponting (and all others) for me. Jonty was quicker than most (national hockey player), but he wasnt Olonga level quick. But I had no idea this was true when watching them as a kid- figured out later that it was that he was sometimes moving before the ball even hit the deck that let him cover so much ground.

Yes, I meant Ponting.

 

[Red]

Obviously I'm Australian IMO but the best all round fielder of the last 30 years is a certain RT Ponting and no you will not change my mind on this. Not necessarily the flashiest, the most memorable or the most spectacular, simply the most consistent in all facets of ground and aerial fielding with 100% dedication every single ball with minimal lapses.

Even in his dotage, after he'd retired from Tests and was basically just playing for Tasmania/Surrey, he was visibly the best and most dangerous fielder on the ground in terms of his anticipation and attack on the ball at the ripe old age of 37.

Yeh, I always thought Ponting and Symonds were roughly on par as ring fieldsmen. Ponting also went into the slips as required and was genius there, which Symonds didn't do. The area where I thought Symonds had Ponting covered ever so slightly was moving to the ball and anticipation (but it's a hard argue), but then Ponting was the best at throwing down the stumps since Viv and Clive Lloyd (TOTAB was also an excellent thrower down of stumps from mid wicket).

Ponting and Symonds at point/coverpoint was a nightmare for opposition teams. Add to that we had Clarke and Brad Hogg who were also very good fielders.

 

[Burgey]

all the memes are coming back

just need a laughing emoji at the start of every response for completion

It’s not so much “laughing emoji” as it is “passive-aggressive but try to hide it behind a superficially good natured emoji” emoji.

 

[Burgey]

Chris Harris from a NZ perspective was pretty good at point.

Yeah he was a gun

 

[Burgey]

I guess most of that is attributable to the fact that the really top notch bowlers, the ones in discussion for ATG status, only really began to establish themselves in the latter part of the decade, typically post 2015 or even post 2016.

Beyond that there’s a slew of bowlers who are ATVG or even the level below, perhaps more so than ever before, but who all work together in a pack and are thus as devastating as any attack before them.

Yeah I think thats probably right. Augurs well for the next decade, with these younger quicks from all over the place coming through now.

 

[honestbharani]

It’s not so much “laughing emoji” as it is “passive-aggressive but try to hide it behind a superficially good natured emoji” emoji.

 

[TheJediBrah]

come on hb don't meltdown again you doing well for a while

 

[honestbharani]

come on hb don't meltdown again you doing well for a while

 

[aussie tragic]

Seeing as it's the time for christmas wishes, and in accordance with the CW rule of threads/posts relate to Tests unless otherwise stated (which means this ATG thread is technically for Tests), can a mod please take up 3 days of their christmas break to move all the white ball posts out of here

Actually just creating an ATG white ball thread to keep this about 'real' cricket would be a good enough Christmas present