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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
It's more for players who had an insane peak in a short amount of time before reverting to mortality.
I'm not entirely convinced that Smith isn't immortal yet.
Slifer
International Captain
It's not just the average where MM is concerned. He had an incredible SR as well and was great vs all comers. Highest average of 23 or so vs any team. And highest average in any country of 24 (discounting 3 tests in NZ). As great as McGrath was, he just doesn't match that level of absolute consistency. There was a time MM played like 7 tests series in a row taking 20 wkts + now that's telling considering his competition for wickets and the plethora of draws from that era. I'm curious about this flatter era thing, because McGrath debuted in the early 90s. Therefore his stats up until the "flat era" should be much better. They aren't. They are in the same ballpark of his contemporaries: Ambrose, Donald etc. Just that they all retired while McGrath carried on. Had they not my educated guess is they would be done just as well as Mcgrath ala the 90s.
The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
De Villiers and Amla are so hard to split, the decline Amla has had might give it to De Villiers because it leaves a sour taste for Amla.
The Battlers Prince
International Vice-Captain
If we rewind the clock 100 years and chose a ln ATG side based only on what had happened up to that moment
1919 side ATG
1. Jack Hobbs
2. WG Grace*
3. KS Ranjitsinhji
4. Victor Trumper
5. Clem Hill
6. Aubrey Faulkner
7. Johnny Briggs
8. Dick Lilley+
9. SF Barnes
10. Charley Turner
11. Fred Spofforth
1919 side ATG
1. Jack Hobbs
2. WG Grace*
3. KS Ranjitsinhji
4. Victor Trumper
5. Clem Hill
6. Aubrey Faulkner
7. Johnny Briggs
8. Dick Lilley+
9. SF Barnes
10. Charley Turner
11. Fred Spofforth
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Dudley Nourse is at worst the third best South African batsman behind Pollock and Kallis. He averaged almost 54 and only played against the two strongest sides of his era. He faced quite a number of great bowlers including Miller, Lindwall, Grimmett, (Bill) Johnson and O'Reilly from Australia and Verity and Bedser from England. No stat padding there.
He was, of course, the first ATG batsman that SA ever had and carried his team (more often to draws than wins, but without him the team would have been little more than a minnow).
With 9 hundreds in 34 tests his conversion rate is well up there amongst the best ever. And as with many of his contemporaries, WWII robbed him of his peak years, having debuted in 35 and retiring in 51 when he was 40 years old.
He's still in South Africa's top 20 run scorers ever, is tenth on the list of most centuries for South Africa and retired with a career average higher than that of Tendulkar. In fact the only South African to have retired with more test runs and a higher average is Kallis.
Dudley Nourse should be one of the first picked in any South African AT side, and is probably somewhere in the top 30 batsmen of all time.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Amla had a 5 year period (2010-2014) where he was ridiculously good and outside of that was not quite up to the same standard. De Villiers had more ups and downs in his test career, never quite hitting Amla's peak but being far more consistent across the entirety of his time in the RSA jersey.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
McGrath debuted in 1993 but didn't hit his straps until 1995.
He actually averaged more in the 90s than in the 00s. In an era of flat tracks and more 50+ average batsmen than at any other time in history, McGrath averaged 20.53. That's simply absurd. The only bowler to do better in the era was Walsh, who retired in 2001.
McGrath took wickets at a lower average than Murali in the 2000s, and he did it mostly on Australian roads. His closest contemporaries (fast bowlers who played 30+ tests in the era) were Dale Steyn and Shaun Pollock, both who are ATG bowlers and both who averaged 15% more than McGrath in the era, and both of who were based in South Africa (which is generally easier for the quicks).
Only 23 bowlers who took 50+ wickets averaged under 30 in the 2000s. McGrath averaged 20.5. It's simply insane.
McGrath's slowish start to test cricket (not really coming good until 1995) artificially inflates his 1990s statistics (and indeed his overall career record). Without those two years on his record, McGrath's overall average drops to 20.87. That's crazy good for a 12 year period.
Of course, Marshall's record looks even better than that, though only for 11 years of his career (his first two years his record isn't great, but it's only over 3 tests so it doesn't skew the stats as much as McGrath's first two years).
Taking McGrath's 12 year peak average of 20.87 and Marshall's 11 year peak average of 20.4 there is very little to split the two. McGrath's economy was fractionally better and Marshall's strike rate was fractionally better. McGrath took more wickets but played more tests. Marshall took more large hauls and took fractionally more (0.1) wickets per match, while McGrath dismissed a much higher proportion of top order (1-3) batsmen.
There is very little to separate these two greats when you look at their respective peaks (if 12 years of a 14 year career can be said to be a "peak").
The only area where McGrath falters is he doesn’t have match winning performances in Asia. In 19 Tests, he has taken just one five wicket haul. He doesn’t have a match winning performance like Marshall or Steyn did in Asian pitches.
McGrath’s overall record in Asia is excellent though. Overall, he is a Top Tier Fast bowler IMO. The greatest fast bowler across formats.
McGrath’s overall record in Asia is excellent though. Overall, he is a Top Tier Fast bowler IMO. The greatest fast bowler across formats.
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MrPrez
International Debutant
Part of this is surely down to bowling alongside Warne and MacGill, whereas neither Marshall nor Steyn had such wicket-hungry spinners.
harsh.ag
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Especially considering how hungry Warne went in India
Slifer
International Captain
No!!
Dale Steyn’s peak was the best IMO. Between 2007-2016, he took 385 wickets in 76 at an average of 21.17 and a SR of 40.5.
That too was in a batting dominated era.
He was so good that he wasn’t compared to his peers. He was light years ahead of the likes of Anderson, Johnson etc. He was so great he was being compared with the legends like Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath.
That too was in a batting dominated era.
He was so good that he wasn’t compared to his peers. He was light years ahead of the likes of Anderson, Johnson etc. He was so great he was being compared with the legends like Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath.
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