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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
bagapath said:
Viv's fall was like Ponting's.

But Beefy and Waqar were completely different players in the two parts of their careers. In fact, I dare say Botham's fall was even more pronounced because as big a star as Waqar was, Beefy was even more impactful (as an allrounder).

Still.. Cant recall anything Waqar did of note post 1995.
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We'll use tons since you used five fers in your example

Viv getting 8 of his 24 test centuries by the end of 1976 and playing til '92 is low key evidence he peaked quite early.

6 tons over 46 tests from 85-92. I'd say his time as a passenger was closer to Waqar and Botham than Ponting. He was still an institution, put butts in seats and still killed it in ODIs, but really I think it's interesting how long his decline actually was
 
NUFAN

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
Wait, your holding Walsh 25 average vs England against him?

You know his average against England is better than Warne's overall Test average.
 
mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
NUFAN said:
Wait, your holding Walsh 25 average vs England against him?

You know his average against England is better than Warne's overall Test average.
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I think because despite having decent bowlers England's batting in the 90s was generally dreadful. But still you can never criticise a bowling average of 25too much with a straight face
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
stephen said:
After careful deliberation I'm returning to my original beliefs on Walsh. Not quite an ATG, but on the verge of it.

Here is my reasoning (other than watching him bowl).

His home average is very good, around Pollock's career average. His away average is over 25.

The two teams he played the most during his career were Australia and England. Australia were very good tbf, but England were not great and Walsh averaged 25 against them in what would have been mostly good bowling conditions.

The teams he played less tests against, Pakistan, New Zealand, India and Sri Lanka he generally performed very well against (except Sri Lanka, who he averaged nearly 35 against, though only over 3 tests).

The problem is that other than Pakistan who had a decent team at the time, India he only played when they were a glorified minnow and he basically played the worst NZ teams of the last 50 years.

Home and away against Australia he averaged around 29 and a lot of that was played on some really poor pitches.

The 90s were an exceptional era for fast bowling. Yet he averages more than every other fast bowler from the era you would consider great, and more than some who definitely wouldn't make that list (de Villiers, Fleming, Streak). In fact he averages virtually the same as Merv Hughes and McDermott in the 90s.

I just can't rate him as an ATG for those reasons. His longevity makes him stand out, as does his partnership with Ambrose. The other reason he stands out is the dross that replaced him. But individually he just wasn't up there with the best.

So I've reconsidered and I have come to the same conclusion as before - he was very good but not up there with the very best.
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With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. India during Walsh's time were far far from being minnows. Wth?? When wi toured india in 94 , india had decimated all comers at home much like they are doing now. An injured walsh without Ambrose at the other end spear heads a drawn test series, when wi really should have lost. Just because you know nothing about Walsh gives you no reason to come up with these ludicrous assessments. And I couldn't help but notice that you never mentioned the other very good team of the 90s: RSA. Over ten tests home and away Walsh was excellent. And excellent against teams featuring Kirsten, Gibbs, kallis, cullinan, batting down to number 9.

Walsh averaging 28 vs Australia is nothing to be ashamed of. With the exception of Ambrose, no other 90s fast bowler did well vs Australia. That Walsh went at under 30 is impressive tbh. Over his entire career, Walsh went at sub 30 home and away vs all comers except away to Australia. Name all of his contemporaries with a similar consistent record??
 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
trundler said:
All Stephen's done is prove that he wasn't Ambrose or McGrath, which was never in contention.
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My standardised averages project rankings probably rate Walsh higher than his own mother and even they put a clear gap between Ambrose/McGrath and him.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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Slifer said:
With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. India during Walsh's time were far far from being minnows. Wth?? When wi toured india in 94 , india had decimated all comers at home much like they are doing now. An injured walsh without Ambrose at the other end spear heads a drawn test series, when wi really should have lost. Just because you know nothing about Walsh gives you no reason to come up with these ludicrous assessments. And I couldn't help but notice that you never mentioned the other very good team of the 90s: RSA. Over ten tests home and away Walsh was excellent. And excellent against teams featuring Kirsten, Gibbs, kallis, cullinan, batting down to number 9.

Walsh averaging 28 vs Australia is nothing to be ashamed of. With the exception of Ambrose, no other 90s fast bowler did well vs Australia. That Walsh went at under 30 is impressive tbh. Over his entire career, Walsh went at sub 30 home and away vs all comers except away to Australia. Name all of his contemporaries with a similar consistent record??
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His average against Australia is hardly disastrous, though it's worth noting that Australia was pretty weak on his first two tousr here, barring TOTAB of course. Having said that, 84/85 was his first tour (I recall his debut actually) so you can't blame him for not being all that as a youngster, either. It's not a crazy outlier like Warne against India, Lillee in Pakistan or Pollock vs Australia imo.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
Burgey said:
His average against Australia is hardly disastrous, though it's worth noting that Australia was pretty weak on his first two tousr here, barring TOTAB of course. Having said that, 84/85 was his first tour (I recall his debut actually) so you can't blame him for not being all that as a youngster, either. It's not a crazy outlier like Warne against India, Lillee in Pakistan or Pollock vs Australia imo.
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Yeah I recall his debut as well. Did he bowl in Australia's first innings?? I recall Australia being skittled for 70 something or so and I believe Walsh didn't get a bowl while Marshall, Garner and Holding cleaned up.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
CricAddict said:
What is Stephen's argument and against?
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Initially he bucketed Walsh and Zaheer Khan in same category. Since he realized that he is clearly wrong, he is now trying hard to prove Walsh is not an ATG. Unable to prove Walsh is not an ATG makes his initial argument ludicrous, so trying very hard in fact.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Slifer said:
With all due respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. India during Walsh's time were far far from being minnows. Wth?? When wi toured india in 94 , india had decimated all comers at home much like they are doing now. An injured walsh without Ambrose at the other end spear heads a drawn test series, when wi really should have lost. Just because you know nothing about Walsh gives you no reason to come up with these ludicrous assessments. And I couldn't help but notice that you never mentioned the other very good team of the 90s: RSA. Over ten tests home and away Walsh was excellent. And excellent against teams featuring Kirsten, Gibbs, kallis, cullinan, batting down to number 9.
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India in the time that Walsh bowled to them were not great, particularly away and Walsh played them more away than at home. Admittedly, Walsh had a better record away vs India than at home, which is to his credit.

His record is excellent vs South Africa too, you are correct.

Walsh averaging 28 vs Australia is nothing to be ashamed of. With the exception of Ambrose, no other 90s fast bowler did well vs Australia. That Walsh went at under 30 is impressive tbh. Over his entire career, Walsh went at sub 30 home and away vs all comers except away to Australia. Name all of his contemporaries with a similar consistent record??
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And Sri Lanka (Admittedly very small sample size).

He was very good, but given the era that he predominantly played in and the quality of his contemporaries both local and foreign it's really hard to put him near the top of the tree.

During the 90s he was nowhere near the best bowler. He was actually better in the 80s when he bowled uphill and into the wind with an exclusively old ball that didn't swing.

This is telling:
1990s Cricket Team Records & Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Now I'm not trying to discredit him. He was very good and his longevity was unparalleled for his era. He's certainly better than the majority of bowlers but if he is an ATG then it's for his longevity, not his performance relative to his peers.

I mean people often talk down players like Matthew Hayden or Inzimam due to the era they played and I don't see why we can't do the same for bowlers.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
h_hurricane said:
Initially he bucketed Walsh and Zaheer Khan in same category. Since he realized that he is clearly wrong, he is now trying hard to prove Walsh is not an ATG. Unable to prove Walsh is not an ATG makes his initial argument ludicrous, so trying very hard in fact.
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Lol. Did you see him try to imply that 80s and 90s India were minnows?? Or that averaging 25 vs England was somehow poor. And of course he conveniently never ever mentions the other outstanding team of Walsh's time ie RSA.
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
stephen said:
India in the time that Walsh bowled to them were not great, particularly away and Walsh played them more away than at home. Admittedly, Walsh had a better record away vs India than at home, which is to his credit.

His record is excellent vs South Africa too, you are correct.



And Sri Lanka (Admittedly very small sample size).

He was very good, but given the era that he predominantly played in and the quality of his contemporaries both local and foreign it's really hard to put him near the top of the tree.

During the 90s he was nowhere near the best bowler. He was actually better in the 80s when he bowled uphill and into the wind with an exclusively old ball that didn't swing.

This is telling:
1990s Cricket Team Records & Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Now I'm not trying to discredit him. He was very good and his longevity was unparalleled for his era. He's certainly better than the majority of bowlers but if he is an ATG then it's for his longevity, not his performance relative to his peers.

I mean people often talk down players like Matthew Hayden or Inzimam due to the era they played and I don't see why we can't do the same for bowlers.
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Now I'd like you to post Walsh's overall record vs that of his contemporaries. You'll find that he was more consistent across the different teams. Obviously, he's not on the same plane as say a Ambrose Donald or McGrath but he's definitely above the likes of Gillespie, McDermott, Botham any of the other very good bowlers of his time. Btw in the 20 tests he played post 2000 he was outstanding. How is he not getting credit for that??
 
Burgey

Burgey

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Taking 7 for 1 in one spell helps, but yeah he was amazing out here. His first series here in 88/89, I remember he bowled first change. Australia did pretty well seeing off the new ball then he came on and took a couple of wickets almost immediately iirc and was clearly the best bowler on display, including Marshall. I think the attack that series was Marshall, Paterson, Walsh, Ambrose but I CBF looking it up.
 
Burgey

Burgey

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Should also say, Courtney pretty obviously chucked his effort ball imo. Am sure it wasn't deliberate, but he did. And before there's any hysteria, let me say I think Lee did too.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Slifer said:
Now I'd like you to post Walsh's overall record vs that of his contemporaries. You'll find that he was more consistent across the different teams. Obviously, he's not on the same plane as say a Ambrose Donald or McGrath but he's definitely above the likes of Gillespie, McDermott, Botham any of the other very good bowlers of his time. Btw in the 20 tests he played post 2000 he was outstanding. How is he not getting credit for that??
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Everything you say is correct. I rate Walsh between [Ambrose, Donald, McGrath] and [Gillespie, McDermott and Botham].
 
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