The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

All I'm saying is his reputation exceeds his numbers.

I disagree. his numbers are good enough to place him among the greatest ever who played the game. his 50 average is simply special and it is good enough to help the argument that Viv was the greatest batter of his generation, just like Dennis Lillee's 23+ average doesn't weaken his status as possibly the greatest fast bowler that ever lived. both these guys often made match winning contributions and their overall career records stay among the elite players of all time.

It is the Daniel Vettoris and Abdul Qadirs of this world who need to be chosen for this team

 

[h_hurricane]

Different era when scores of batters averaged in the 50s.

And Viv's overseas record was awesome. Viru struggled outside Asia in general. Viru is a great. Viv is an all time great. By any logic, Viv should not be in this team. His number back his reputation. Honestly, even Kapil should not be in this team.

Both Viv and Kapil are bonafide ATGs. There is absolutely no doubt about it. These two were my favorite cricketers growing up. Their numbers are awesome to say the least. The reason both of them made my list is because they were even better than their numbers suggested.
Greg Chappell once said this about Viv " Richards was the kind of batsman who could have averaged 80 in test cricket if he wanted to but chose not to because he did not need to". Every word true about him.
Kapil was the lone Indian bowler for a decade ( others in the 80s team were not fit to be called bowlers). If he would have been part of a better team, he would have easily averaged 25-26.

 

[Coronis]

Different era when scores of batters averaged in the 50s.

And Viv's overseas record was awesome. Viru struggled outside Asia in general. Viru is a great. Viv is an all time great. By any logic, Viv should not be in this team. His number back his reputation. Honestly, even Kapil should not be in this team.

Obviously there is no comparison between Sehwag and Viv, yet they have overall similar career statistics. Hence why his greatness exceeds his numbers.

I disagree. his numbers are good enough to place him among the greatest ever who played the game. his 50 average is simply special and it is good enough to help the argument that Viv was the greatest batter of his generation, just like Dennis Lillee's 23+ average doesn't weaken his status as possibly the greatest fast bowler that ever lived. both these guys often made match winning contributions and their overall career records stay among the elite players of all time.

It is the Daniel Vettoris and Abdul Qadirs of this world who need to be chosen for this team

Yeah no his stats don’t automatically pop out at you as best after Bradman, so yes he is a perfect fit for this XI.

 

[jimmy101]

Of course, we must remember Viv's late career decline was curtailed somewhat when the WICB stopped selecting circa 1991. He could have played in the 1992 CWC and perhaps even on into 1993 had the team desperately needed him. However, WI were strong enough at the time to move on without him. Ponting, on the other hand, was kept to bolster a team in the midst of a transition, and so his record eventually took a hit statistically. In both cases, both men wanted to continue playing, what we ended up with was a sliding doors scenario.

 

[Slifer]

About Viv , on the surface and relative to today's modern batsmen I could see why he's considered overrated but he's not. Viv as we all know averaged 50 but at a time when precious few did. Also, Viv averaged 40+ home and away vs everyone (except for 3 tests in NZ). Viv averaged 45 + across all test innings and a commendable 50+ away. In WSC I believe he was 3rd best after Greg Chappell and Barry Richard averaging a respectable 55 or so. All this was done of course with minimal protection and unlimited bouncers.

When it comes to the atg/very good bowlers of his time, each and everyone of them tasted viv's willow at some point. And they include: hadlee, imran, akram, lillee, Thompson, Willis, qasim, chandra, Underwood, botham etc. At some point or another, viv scored a hundred and averaged 50+ in a series vs all of the above. Stand outs for me, would be his series in Australia in 79-80, away to Pakistan in 80, etc.

 

[jimmy101]

Viv was just on another planet during his heyday. You only have to watch footage of him batting for >2 minutes before this becomes unequivocally manifest. Most certainly a top-10 all time batsman.

 

[trundler]

I am in total agreement with the 2 posts above. Just watching footage of his tons makes that perfectly clear. 'A butcher of all types of bowling' as one commentator said. Put it this way, his raw stats don't accurately reflect his greatness. He tends to land high on 'impact' stats and rightfully so.

 

[jimmy101]

Moreover, players such as Grace & Trumper will always be ATGs for me despite their stats. Much like Viv, virtually every cricketing journalist from the respective era regarded them as being in a league of their own. The more you read about their achievements, the more evidence you'll find to support the opinions of the time.

 

[trundler]

Well PEWS's adjusted average thing had Trumpet ahead of Ponting at one point. Grace averaging 50 in CC over a decade and scoring more tons than all of England is remarkable too. Their stats have to be viewed in context.

 

[jimmy101]

Top 11 batsmen

Grace
Trumper
Hammond
Bradman
Headley
Hutton
Sobers
Pollock
Richards
Tendulkar
Lara

Kohli & Smith will be up for consideration when they retire. This list seems pretty water tight, is there anyone you can think of who could break into this echelon?

 

[trundler]

Top 11 batsmen

Grace
Trumper
Hammond
Bradman
Headley
Hutton
Sobers
Pollock
Richards
Tendulkar
Lara

Kohli & Smith will be up for consideration when they retire. This list seems pretty water tight, is there anyone you can think of who could break into this echelon?

You have made a glaring, blasphemous omission. That of John Berry Hobbs!

 

[jimmy101]

Well PEWS's adjusted average thing had Trumpet ahead of Ponting. Grace averaging 50 in CC over a decade and scoring more tons than all of England is remarkable too.

I may just have to have a squiz at that then!

And yeah, Grace was more of a phenomenon than he gets credit for. Miles ahead of anyone.

 

[jimmy101]

You have made a glaring, blasphemous omission. That of John Berry Hobbs!

That I did. What a fool! Fifty lashes with a wet noodle for me.

 

[harsh.ag]

Top 11 batsmen

Grace
Trumper
Hammond
Bradman
Headley
Hutton
Sobers
Pollock
Richards
Tendulkar
Lara

Kohli & Smith will be up for consideration when they retire. This list seems pretty water tight, is there anyone you can think of who could break into this echelon?

Hobbs and Chappell in for Trumper and Headley/Pollock

 

[trundler]

Of the batsmen belonging to that exclusive group, Hutton is the most underrated. What a champion he was.

 

[jimmy101]

Hobbs and Chappell in for Trumper and Headley/Pollock

Chappell, maybe. Hobbs of course. If someone had to make way for Hobbs, sadly it may very well be Graeme Pollock on the chopping block.

 

[trundler]

Yeah Pollock is a more contentious pick. If we're making an air tight list, I'd have Chappell ahead of Pollock. Hobbs is a certainty. Only Don and the Doctor have outscored their contemporaries by greater margins.

 

[jimmy101]

Pollock and Chappell are roughly par for me.

 

[jimmy101]

Ian Chappell regards Pollock's 274 at Durban as one of the most imposing knocks ever played, definitely worth consideration when you think about the fact that Chappelli would have seen almost every single one of his brother Greg's innings. Interestingly, Pollock has won Wisden's Leading Cricketer in the world award twice, in 1967 & 1969. Pollock is the only man to achieve this award and break Garfield Sobers' hold on the award from 1964 until 1970.

 

[trundler]

Yeah but he still didn't play long enough. Therefore I'll take Chappell who was as good but did it longer.