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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Red

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
stephen said:
Steve Waugh said the Sharjah innings was possibly the best innings he's ever seen.

But if someone wants to pick holes in any record I'm sure they can.

It's just funny that when it comes to Hayden people are always saying "well if you exclude those times where he was successful and only look at the times he was unsuccessful then he was unsuccessful".

The guy was the best opener I've seen. By a decent margin.
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Waugh said that because Hayden was a very good player of spin, and that game suited spinners. Hayden was also successful in India because of this.

I'm not simply "excluding the times he was successful". I am saying that when conditions suited pace bowling and the opposition had good quicks, Hayden more often than not went missing. To me, to be an elite opener, you have to play clutch innings against great quicks in adverse conditions. Guys like Lawry did this, notably in the Battle of the Ridge.

FWIW i'm not saying Hayden was a bad player. He was very good. Just imo he is a long way off being the greatest opener, or one of the greatest openers.
 
Gob

Gob

International Coach
Red Hill said:
Waugh said that because Hayden was a very good player of spin, and that game suited spinners. Hayden was also successful in India because of this.

I'm not simply "excluding the times he was successful". I am saying that when conditions suited pace bowling and the opposition had good quicks, Hayden more often than not went missing. To me, to be an elite opener, you have to play clutch innings against great quicks in adverse conditions. Guys like Lawry did this, notably in the Battle of the Ridge.

FWIW i'm not saying Hayden was a bad player. He was very good. Just imo he is a long way off being the greatest opener, or one of the greatest openers.
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How about his innings against world xi in Sydney against fired up Flintoff and Harmison


He went on to make a hundred on that
 
Burgey

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Bill Lawry is a chronically under rated player. His batting went down hill in his later years when captain and the team was under the kosch, but Fmd he was a great opener for Australia

If he went to England in 72 we’d have won the Ashes.
 
fredfertang

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Burgey said:
Bill Lawry is a chronically under rated player. His batting went down hill in his later years when captain and the team was under the kosch, but Fmd he was a great opener for Australia

If he went to England in 72 we’d have won the Ashes.
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Nah - he was John Snow's bunny
 
watson

watson

Banned
Snow dismissed Lawry 6 times during 9 Test matches (1968-71) in which he averaged 42.42. Just the one century at The Oval.

Lawry is obviously not as ***y as Hayden, but my enduring memory of Hayden is the 2005 Ashes when Matthew Hoggard made him look second rate for 4 1/2 Test matches. Basically cost Australia the Ashes because Ponting was constantly exposed to the new ball when he was not in peak form. Obviously McGrath treading on a cricket ball didn’t help, but I still have nightmares about Hoggard’s inswinger to Hayden’s cumbersome front-front.

I don’t think that Lawry had any obvious weaknesses other than his attitude from about 1970 onwards when he became cynical.
 
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A

AnthonyC

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
bagapath said:
too many guys before Marto in my opinion....

McCabe
Mark Waugh
Walters
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I think Walter's is often overlooked, he struggled in England but was awesome elsewhere and his bowling was part time but had a habit of breaking partnerships and ave 29.
 
O

oblongballs

U19 Debutant
stephen said:
Steve Waugh said the Sharjah innings was possibly the best innings he's ever seen.

But if someone wants to pick holes in any record I'm sure they can.

It's just funny that when it comes to Hayden people are always saying "well if you exclude those times where he was successful and only look at the times he was unsuccessful then he was unsuccessful".

The guy was the best opener I've seen. By a decent margin.
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I agree, Hayden is vastly underrated on this forum. He is easily in an Aussie all time XI and would be a great choice in an all time world XI, although personally I'd have 4 or 5 names I'd pick above him. On top of that, he was a modern test batsman before we even understood what that meant. His attacking play was some of the best and he elevated the art of scoring quickly in tests. Add to that a top tier ODI career and we one of the true great Aussie batsmen.
 
smash84

smash84

The Tiger King
oblongballs said:
I agree, Hayden is vastly underrated on this forum. He is easily in an Aussie all time XI and would be a great choice in an all time world XI, although personally I'd have 4 or 5 names I'd pick above him. On top of that, he was a modern test batsman before we even understood what that meant. His attacking play was some of the best and he elevated the art of scoring quickly in tests. Add to that a top tier ODI career and we one of the true great Aussie batsmen.
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Don't quite agree about the scoring quickly part. Michael Slater was scoring quickly before Hayden had even cemented his place in the side. Not easy for him to break into the at aus xi, despite him being pretty good.
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
smalishah84 said:
Don't quite agree about the scoring quickly part. Michael Slater was scoring quickly before Hayden had even cemented his place in the side. Not easy for him to break into the at aus xi, despite him being pretty good.
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It was very hard for non-NSW players to break into the national team back then. With Taylor, Slater, M Waugh, S Waugh taking up 4 batting slots for most of the 90s and Taylor as captain openly preferring NSW players (or at least disregarding QLD players) it's easy to see why people felt there was a NSW bias.

The other two batting slots were filled by Border, Boon, Ponting, Bevan, Blewett, Martyn and a few others over that time.
 
bagapath

bagapath

International Captain
Second Spitter said:
Does any rational and sane person think JIMMY is better than Courtney Walsh?
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I am not always rational; my sanity has been questioned several times. I do not think Jimmy is better than Courtney. And I expect sane, rational people to have the same opinion. But you never know these days... Donald Trump is in White House, you see!
 
stephen

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Longevity XI:

Grace
Gavaskar
Bradman
Tendulkar
Border (c)
Kallis
Boucher (w/k)
Anderson
Walsh
McGrath
Murali

Very long tail that but otherwise a damn fine side.
 
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