The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[CricAddict]

He's now about 60 tests in. When do we call this?


V.Trumper
B.Lawry
D.Bradman *
G.Chappell
S.Smith
K.Miller
A.Gilchrist +
S.Warne
D.Lillee
B.OReilly
G.McGrath

Wow. A team where Ponting, Steve Waugh and AB can't find a place.

 

[vcs]

Don't think he displaces any of those 3 just yet, but it seems merely a matter of time at this point.

 

[stephen]

Well we could throw Waugh or AB in over Miller if we swap out tiger for Davidson. AB gives us a spin option. He also gives us a captaincy option.

Also, Hayden over the corpse.

 

[Red]

Not going to get into the whole Hayden thing, but I want a guy opening who can at least stand up against elite quicks.

 

[stephen]

Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh and Akhtar not elite enough?

 

[Red]

Donald, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Walsh and Akhtar not elite enough?

He's more myth than anything. Regularly went missing when the opposition attack was reasonably good. Was pretty poor against SA overall. Ambrose destroyed him early in his career. England worked him over in 2005 with a decent pace attack. Never made runs against Wasim and Waqar in tandem.

 

[stephen]

He's more myth than anything. Regularly went missing when the opposition attack was reasonably good. Was pretty poor against SA overall. Ambrose destroyed him early in his career. England worked him over in 2005 with a decent pace attack. Never made runs against Wasim and Waqar in tandem.

The early career struggles against Ambrose are pretty crazy to hold against him (or do we still think Smith is a leg spinner).

His record against SA holds up a lot better when you look at his actual performances than stats alone.

Another great bowler you can add to the list he did well against is Bond (from a small sample size).

His performance against England in 05 was the end of a long run of poor form which he rectified in the final test with a career-saving ton.

It's like every time he answered his critics the goal posts moved - "oh the bowlers are not in their prime" (despite a series average of around 30 away against the greatest batting lineup of all time). "But he didn't face an attack of prime Ambrose, Walsh, Waqar and Snow" all at once.

Fact is that as far as openers go you have to go back to bloody pre-war English openers to find some with more complete records.

I think the biggest genuine criticism of Hayden is that he tended to get to 100 and then get out. For the number of hundreds he hit, he didn't hit many big ones.

 

[Coronis]

The early career struggles against Ambrose are pretty crazy to hold against him (or do we still think Smith is a leg spinner).

His record against SA holds up a lot better when you look at his actual performances than stats alone.

Another great bowler you can add to the list he did well against is Bond (from a small sample size).

His performance against England in 05 was the end of a long run of poor form which he rectified in the final test with a career-saving ton.

It's like every time he answered his critics the goal posts moved - "oh the bowlers are not in their prime" (despite a series average of around 30 away against the greatest batting lineup of all time). "But he didn't face an attack of prime Ambrose, Walsh, Waqar and Snow" all at once.

Fact is that as far as openers go you have to go back to bloody pre-war English openers to find some with more complete records.

I think the biggest genuine criticism of Hayden is that he tended to get to 100 and then get out. For the number of hundreds he hit, he didn't hit many big ones.

Reminds me of a certain pre war English opener.

 

[bagapath]

He's now about 60 tests in. When do we call this?


V.Trumper
B.Lawry
D.Bradman *
G.Chappell
S.Smith
K.Miller
A.Gilchrist +
S.Warne
D.Lillee
B.OReilly
G.McGrath

To play

Morris
Hayden
Ponting
Border
S. Waugh
Noble
Healy +
Benaud *
Davidson
Lindwall
Grimmett

 

[Gob]

D Warner
M Hayden
D Bradman
G Chappell
R Ponting
S Border
A Gilchrist
K Miller
S Warne
D Lillee
G McGrath

 

[Red]

The early career struggles against Ambrose are pretty crazy to hold against him (or do we still think Smith is a leg spinner).

His record against SA holds up a lot better when you look at his actual performances than stats alone.

Another great bowler you can add to the list he did well against is Bond (from a small sample size).

His performance against England in 05 was the end of a long run of poor form which he rectified in the final test with a career-saving ton.

It's like every time he answered his critics the goal posts moved - "oh the bowlers are not in their prime" (despite a series average of around 30 away against the greatest batting lineup of all time). "But he didn't face an attack of prime Ambrose, Walsh, Waqar and Snow" all at once.

Fact is that as far as openers go you have to go back to bloody pre-war English openers to find some with more complete records.

I think the biggest genuine criticism of Hayden is that he tended to get to 100 and then get out. For the number of hundreds he hit, he didn't hit many big ones.

Complete records? Hayden was very mediocre away against England, SA and NZ.

Hayden loved it when the opposition attack was made up of medium pacers and spinners.

Hayden was nowhere to be seen when we needed him in England in 2005. England had a functioning pace attack and he went completely missing.

Easily the most overrated cricketer of the past few decades imo.

 

[Gob]

Hayden loved it when the opposition attack was made up of medium pacers and spinners.

Like Shoaib Akthar.

 

[stephen]

Anyone who says Hayden was mediocre against SA obviously didn't actually watch him play them. Particularly his last tour was statistically poor but he set up the series win for us.

Like I said before, he answered every question asked of him in his career and yet the thing that people holds against him are his early career struggles against one of the top 5 bowlers of all time.

 

[Red]

Like Shoaib Akthar.

Happy to break this down, because even the myth of Hayden vs Akhtar still persists.

Hayden played 5 tests against Akhtar. Made one ton in those 5 tests- in a game where Akhtar bowled 14 overs and took 1 wicket, and Waqar bowled 8 overs, while Kaneria bowled 26 overs and Saqlain 34. In the same match McGrath took 3 wickets, while Warne took 8. Make of that what you will.
2nd Test, Pakistan tour of Sri Lanka and United Arab Emirates at Sharjah, Oct 11-12 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

In his only other score of 50+ against Akhtar, Shoaib got him for 9 in the first innings, before Hayden down hill skis a fifty in an easy chase.
2nd Test, Pakistan tour of Australia at Melbourne, Dec 26-29 2004 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

In his other test innings where Akhtar played

9 - c. Malik, bowled Akhtar

26 - b. Kaneria

23*

4 - b. Akhtar

10 - b. Akhtar

4 - b. Waqar

34- b. Mushtaq


So, yeh...

 

[stephen]

Steve Waugh said the Sharjah innings was possibly the best innings he's ever seen.

But if someone wants to pick holes in any record I'm sure they can.

It's just funny that when it comes to Hayden people are always saying "well if you exclude those times where he was successful and only look at the times he was unsuccessful then he was unsuccessful".

The guy was the best opener I've seen. By a decent margin.

 

[Gob]

Happy to break this down, because even the myth of Hayden vs Akhtar still persists.

Hayden played 5 tests against Akhtar. Made one ton in those 5 tests- in a game where Akhtar bowled 14 overs and took 1 wicket, and Waqar bowled 8 overs, while Kaneria bowled 26 overs and Saqlain 34. In the same match McGrath took 3 wickets, while Warne took 8. Make of that what you will.
2nd Test, Pakistan tour of Sri Lanka and United Arab Emirates at Sharjah, Oct 11-12 2002 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

In his only other score of 50+ against Akhtar, Shoaib got him for 9 in the first innings, before Hayden down hill skis a fifty in an easy chase.
2nd Test, Pakistan tour of Australia at Melbourne, Dec 26-29 2004 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

In his other test innings where Akhtar played

9 - c. Malik, bowled Akhtar

26 - b. Kaneria

23*

4 - b. Akhtar

10 - b. Akhtar

4 - b. Waqar

34- b. Mushtaq


So, yeh...

 

[Coronis]

Steve Waugh said the Sharjah innings was possibly the best innings he's ever seen.

But if someone wants to pick holes in any record I'm sure they can.

It's just funny that when it comes to Hayden people are always saying "well if you exclude those times where he was successful and only look at the times he was unsuccessful then he was unsuccessful".

The guy was the best opener I've seen. By a decent margin.

He's the best opener I've seen too, but jeez I wish I'd gotten to see some of the great openers play.

 

[bagapath]

To play

Morris
Hayden
Ponting
Border
S. Waugh
Noble
Healy +
Benaud *
Davidson
Lindwall
Grimmett

Pushing it further...

Third XI

Langer
Simpson
Hill
Harvey
Hussey
Gregory
Armstrong *
Marsh +
Johnson
Spofforth
McGill

 

[vcs]

Martyn?

 

[bagapath]

Martyn?

too many guys before Marto in my opinion....

McCabe
Mark Waugh
Walters