The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[JBMAC]

If you are picking an ATG team then Gilchrist wouldn't get a show based on keeping ability alone. By Gilchrist's own admission other keepers were his superior, especially Healy.

However, the equation for the wicket-keeper is 'Keeping + Batting', not just the singular task of keeping. Therefore, Gilchrist is the obvious choice keeper for any ATG cricket team. This is because Gilchrist placed the 'most importance' on his glovework and by any measure his skills would surfice for most ATG XIs.

Having said that, I think that when it comes to Test matches Alan Knott's 'Keeping + Batting' is slighting greater than Gilchrist's 'Keeping + Batting'. Obviously, Knott couldn't take an attack apart like Gilchrist. However, against quality pace like Lillee and Thomo, and Holding and Roberts he was a genius, and I can't imagine Gilchrist doing much better.

Note: Knott's batting average after the 74-75 Ashes series was 36.4 with 3 x 50s and a century. The only other English batsman to average higher were John Edrich (43.3, 2 x 50s, zero 100s) and Tony Grieg (40.5, 3 x 50s, 1 x 100s).

Your reasoning is sound but I believe some what flawed. If you are selecting an ATG side you would have selected the best bowlers, the best batsmen. Then you need a top flight stumper.The likes of Tallon, Grout, MacLean or Engineer.Any of these four would compliment an ATG side and bring balance. You do not require a stumper who scores lots of runs

 

[Coronis]

Your reasoning is sound but I believe some what flawed. If you are selecting an ATG side you would have selected the best bowlers, the best batsmen. Then you need a top flight stumper.The likes of Tallon, Grout, MacLean or Engineer.Any of these four would compliment an ATG side and bring balance. You do not require a stumper who scores lots of runs

Did you ever see Oldfield keep?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Did you ever see Oldfield keep?

Obviously would've since he apparently watched Bradman bat.

 

[Red]

Obviously would've since he apparently watched Bradman bat.

Not sure if srs etc but Oldfields career ended a decade before Bradman's

 

[OverratedSanity]

Not sure if srs etc but Oldfields career ended a decade before Bradman's

Still coincided with a decade of Bradman's career.

I have no idea how old JBMAC is ftr.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

JBMAC wag

 

[JBMAC]

Did you ever see Oldfield keep?

Unfortunately I did not. I may be a lot older than you think but not that old. By all reports, his peers and contemporary reports, he was quite a gloveman. I believe he retired in the mid thirties (I think) but Bradman played on until 1948 and I even watched him in an exhibition match in '54.

 

[JBMAC]

Not sure if srs etc but Oldfields career ended a decade before Bradman's

If my memory serves me correctly Oldfield retired mid thirties and Bradman played on until 1948.

 

[bagapath]

JBMAC. Respects, Sir

My 1917 born grandpa and 1926 born grandma are still going strong.

He has told me about how he was roped in as an umpire in the last minute for a tour match between Maharaja of Vizzy's team (made up of Englishmen) versus the Maharaja of Pudukottai's team (the local hosts) in 1933 when Vizzy's team stopped by at the Pudukkottai palace on the way to catch a boat to Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Pudukkottai was the erstwhile Indian princely state from which my family hails. It is now part of Tamil Nadu state, of South India.

Apparently the 16 year old Ram, my grandpa, responded to a loud appeal by the Pudukkotai team's opening bowler and gave the Vizzy team's opener out LBW for 12. The few thousands who had gathered to see this inconsequential match were disappointed by the decision and walked away booing at the young umpire. He has always had this doubt whether the batter was Jack Hobbs. Wish I could find out.

 

[JBMAC]

JBMAC. Respects, Sir

My 1917 born grandpa and 1926 born grandma are still going strong.

He has told me about how he was roped in as an umpire in the last minute for a tour match between Maharaja of Vizzy's team (made up of Englishmen) versus the Maharaja of Pudukottai's team (the local hosts) in 1933 when Vizzy's team stopped by at the Pudukkottai palace on the way to catch a boat to Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Pudukkottai was the erstwhile Indian princely state from which my family hails. It is now part of Tamil Nadu state, of South India.

Apparently the 16 year old Ram, my grandpa, responded to a loud appeal by the Pudukkotai team's opening bowler and gave the Vizzy team's opener out LBW for 12. The few thousands who had gathered to see this inconsequential match were disappointed by the decision and walked away booing at the young umpire. He has always had this doubt whether the batter was Jack Hobbs. Wish I could find out.

There are others on here with far superior knowledge than I. Suggest you ask fredfertang about this. Having said that it is not the first time I have heard this story and some similar ones are told about aussie cricket. I feel given the political nature of our known world at the time...eg England still "owned" India(hope that does not offend). it is entirely plausible Hobbs could have been "out in the colonies". He would have been about 46 or so and actually retired circa '31. Aged a bit for the game you are talking about but could have been asked at the conclusion of his career to go out and help establish Indian cricket. As I stated there sre others on here who could know of this. Hope this helps somehow.

 

[Zinzan]

Both Ian Smith and Adam Parore were great technicians if we're talking purely keeping alone.

And Healy was also superb.

 

[Red]

Knott was before my time.

Healy was the best I've seen in all aspects of keeping. Nearly flawless as a gloveman.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

As far as I'm concerned there are only two candidates for the all time XI. Alan Knott if you want the best keeper or Adam Gilchrist if you're settling for a Test class keeper of lesser ability but who is also a Test class batsman.

 

[Zinzan]

As far as I'm concerned there are only two candidates for the all time XI. Alan Knott if you want the best keeper or Adam Gilchrist if you're settling for a Test class keeper of lesser ability but who is also a Test class batsman.

Flower is so tragically underrated it's not funny.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Flower is so tragically underrated it's not funny.

Class batsman, but moderate wicketkeeper.

 

[Red]

There are a few guys who were really good keepers but also good with the bat. Syed Kirmani is often forgotten but was an excellent keeper. Les Ames was an excellent batsman and from most reports a very good keeper. Godfrey Evans is my personal favourite, and he was a good batsman too.

 

[Zinzan]

Class batsman, but moderate wicketkeeper.

Interesting, It's not the first time I've heard this, but I just don't recall him dropping anything obvious on the occasions I watched. Perhaps I caught him on good days. I know he didn't looks that much of a natural with the gloves, perhaps that's a factor in people's opinion of him.

 

[Coronis]

Can't seem to find many keeping videos of him, they're all about his batting.

 

[fredfertang]

JBMAC. Respects, Sir

My 1917 born grandpa and 1926 born grandma are still going strong.

He has told me about how he was roped in as an umpire in the last minute for a tour match between Maharaja of Vizzy's team (made up of Englishmen) versus the Maharaja of Pudukottai's team (the local hosts) in 1933 when Vizzy's team stopped by at the Pudukkottai palace on the way to catch a boat to Ceylon (Sri Lanka). Pudukkottai was the erstwhile Indian princely state from which my family hails. It is now part of Tamil Nadu state, of South India.

Apparently the 16 year old Ram, my grandpa, responded to a loud appeal by the Pudukkotai team's opening bowler and gave the Vizzy team's opener out LBW for 12. The few thousands who had gathered to see this inconsequential match were disappointed by the decision and walked away booing at the young umpire. He has always had this doubt whether the batter was Jack Hobbs. Wish I could find out.

It may have been Hobbs - he was in India in 1933/34 as a journalist following Jardine's England side - according to his biographer he played in one "exhibition" match at Bombay being out caught for 22, which suggests maybe not - but there is a gap between their game against an Indian Cricket Federation XI at Madras on 7 February 1934 and the start of their game against All Ceylon on Feb 16 - there is no doubt Hobbs was hugely popular in India - there had been a suggestion at one point that he might have been in the tour party for that reason, even though he turned 51 during the tour. He was also a friend of Vizzy having been out there for him in 1930/31 - there may be a scorecard on cricketarchive but its broken at the moment so I can't check

 

[bagapath]

It may have been Hobbs - he was in India in 1933/34 as a journalist following Jardine's England side - according to his biographer he played in one "exhibition" match at Bombay being out caught for 22, which suggests maybe not - but there is a gap between their game against an Indian Cricket Federation XI at Madras on 7 February 1934 and the start of their game against All Ceylon on Feb 16 - there is no doubt Hobbs was hugely popular in India - there had been a suggestion at one point that he might have been in the tour party for that reason, even though he turned 51 during the tour. He was also a friend of Vizzy having been out there for him in 1930/31 - there may be a scorecard on cricketarchive but its broken at the moment so I can't check

Wow. Thats awesome.