The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

I think that trueman has to be included over Bedser, and using Bradmans team comes with accepting that he had preferences with players who he played with, got him out or that reminded him of him self. He left out Hobbs for Morris and that in itself speaks volumes.

Separate note, once we get these teams selected who is for some simmed series, either all 8, or just the top 4 or 6. Since we are currently discussing England we can come to a consensus there first, then conclude the Aussie team and go on from there.

Sounds fun?

 

[Mike5181]

NZ:

Tests
1.Glenn Turner
2.Stewie Dempster
3.Bert Sutcliffe
4.Martin Crowe
5.Martin Donnelly
6.John R Reid (c)
7.Christopher Cairns
8.Richard Hadlee
9.Ian Smith+
10.Shane Bond
11.Jack Cowie

ODIs
1.Glenn Turner
2.Nathan Astle
3.Stephen Fleming (c)
4.Martin Crowe
5.Ross Taylor
6.Roger Twose
7.Christopher Cairns
8.Brendon McCullum+
9.Richard Hadlee
10.Daniel Vettori
11.Shane Bond

 

[watson]

I think that trueman has to be included over Bedser, and using Bradmans team comes with accepting that he had preferences with players who he played with, got him out or that reminded him of him self. He left out Hobbs for Morris and that in itself speaks volumes.

Separate note, once we get these teams selected who is for some simmed series, either all 8, or just the top 4 or 6. Since we are currently discussing England we can come to a consensus there first, then conclude the Aussie team and go on from there.

Sounds fun?

I agree. We are under no obligation to accept McGilvray's opinion, but merely throw everything into the mix, and then draw our own conclusions - right or wrong.

I tend to think that Trueman could do most of what Bedser did, but 20-30 kms faster. Trueman also had a bouncer and Bedser didn't.

So, given the choice between Bedser and Trueman, I would choose Trueman anyday.

Ergo - Trueman is a must in any England line-up. As is SF Barnes.

It is Larwood, Snow.....etc etc who are the variables IMO.

 

[kyear2]

The one that I cannot fathom (besides for sure what Barnes bowled, I think we are now accepting the theory of spin) is why is Larwood rated so highly, Benaud rates him in his 6 best fast bolwers ever ahead of ever W.I who ever played. Its easy to use first class stats to bak up great test numbers (Headley, B. Richards, Procter ect) but not to contridict ordinary/poor test stats.

 

[watson]

Well everything actually. The object of the game is to pick the eleven best players. Its not like football or rugby league where combinations are more vital.

Agree there is nothing morally wrong of course, but if Morris was born later could he have done what Lawry did? Could Trumper or Barnes have done what Simpson did??




That's exactly what I was getting at. Again I have no problem if you can't split say a Lawry and a Morris for the second spot, but I've just felt reading posts from the last week or two players are moving up the pecking order of teams due to their combination, personally I don't like it.

I don't think that it's quite like that. Anyone could make a reasonable case as to why Simpson or Lawry could make an ATG Aussie team on their OWN merits. Indeed, they could have been 20 years apart and still be front runners.

However, the 'Simpson-Lawry Combo Thing' is merely an added factor like a great cover drive, immaculate defence, good slips catching, or average over 50. By sheer coincidence it gives both players an edge over other openers when all things are equal.

How else am I supposed to split the left-handers Lawry and Morris? I can't otherwise because they are really that close in talent and effect.

 

[kyear2]

Good compelling argument, all other factors being equal.

 

[watson]

The one that I cannot fathom (besides for sure what Barnes bowled, I think we are now accepting the theory of spin) is why is Larwood rated so highly, Benaud rates him in his 6 best fast bolwers ever ahead of ever W.I who ever played. Its easy to use first class stats to bak up great test numbers (Headley, B. Richards, Procter ect) but not to contridict ordinary/poor test stats.

The inclusion of Larwood would give the England pace attack added balance because Larwood is comfortably the fastest bowler that England has produced.

In other words the captain could use him as a 'shock bowler' like Shoaib Akhtar. Due to Larwood's speed and accuracy the Captain would merely issue the instruction, "I give you 5 overs to kill the batsman. Bowl flat-out". Trueman or Snow would then obtain the actual wicket of said batsman with a decent leg-cutter once the batsman is on the defensive.

We should rarely look at a bowler in isolation but conceive him as part of a trio or quartet. In my opinion Larwood would combine very nicely with either Trueman or Snow, or even Bedser for that matter.

 

[kyear2]

Top 10 all time though?

 

[watson]

Top 10 all time though?

Let me think about it for a minute;

01. Marshall
02. McGrath
03. Hadlee
04. Lillee
05. Ambrose
06. Imran
07. Trueman
08. Lindwall
09. Garner
10. Donald
11. Davidson
12. Akram
13. Roberts
14. Holding
15. Larwood

No, more like Top 15 I think.

Larwood's standing would no doubt improve if we include domestic cricket. But I am ranking according to international cricket.

 

[Jager]

sounds good kyear.

Gee whiz, it's so hard to rank bowlers. Think I'd probably have Larwood in my top five though.

 

[watson]

sounds good kyear.

Gee whiz, it's so hard to rank bowlers. Think I'd probably have Larwood in my top five though.

Incidently, I don't see much difference in the skill and talent between Larwood and Snow. John Snow comes in at No.16 - just.

And I like Neil Adcock, Proctor, Pollock, and Steyn too.

 

[Red]

Let me think about it for a minute;

01. Marshall
02. McGrath
03. Hadlee
04. Lillee
05. Ambrose
06. Imran
07. Trueman
08. Lindwall
09. Garner
10. Donald
11. Davidson
12. Akram
13. Roberts
14. Holding
15. Larwood

No, more like Top 15 I think.

Larwood's standing would no doubt improve if we include domestic cricket. But I am ranking according to international cricket.

I'm curious more than anything, not trying to start a debate, but why don't people rate Joel Garner a lot higher than they do?

 

[Jager]

I can only assume he was overshadowed by his peers due to their personalities and styles of bowling

 

[Red]

I can only assume he was overshadowed by his peers due to their personalities and styles of bowling

I personally see no reason not to include him in the top 5, in a cluster of guys hard to separate. He was a beast.

 

[ankitj]

Do you guys try too hard to appear cool when you leave out widely accepted ATG players with gun stats in favor of lesser acclaimed cricketers with decidedly inferior stats, typically from many generations earlier? Srs question.

 

[watson]

Do you guys try too hard to appear cool when you leave out widely accepted ATG players with gun stats in favor of lesser acclaimed cricketers with decidedly inferior stats, typically from many generations earlier? Srs question.

Did you have anyone in mind antitj ?

 

[watson]

I personally see no reason not to include him in the top 5, in a cluster of guys hard to separate. He was a beast.

Not everyone can be in the top 5. And if I knock off, say Hadlee, to make room for Garner then the pro-Hadlee brigade will start to jump up and down.

The truth is - these lists are arbitrary and cannot be set in concrete. One of the obvious reasons is that the actual and real difference in strength between the ATG bowlers is so small as to be almost meaningless.

And on that note, I've changed my mind - Snow into the top 15 and Larwood out.

 

[Mike5181]

Let me think about it for a minute;

01. Marshall
02. McGrath
03. Hadlee
04. Lillee
05. Ambrose
06. Imran
07. Trueman
08. Lindwall
09. Garner
10. Donald
11. Davidson
12. Akram
13. Roberts
14. Holding
15. Larwood

No, more like Top 15 I think.

Larwood's standing would no doubt improve if we include domestic cricket. But I am ranking according to international cricket.

If you're ranking bowlers based on international cricket, surely guys like Waqar Younis and Shaun Pollock would be ahead of Larwood and Snow.

 

[ankitj]

Did you have anyone in mind antitj ?

Haha. General observation. A specific example will be picking Stan McCabe over Greg Chappell as mentioned in one of the posts in this thread. Not picking on someone but curious why there is an inclination to make such counter intuitive decisions?

 

[kyear2]

Marshall
Mcgrath
Ambrose
Lillee
Lindwall
Trueman
Holding
Imran
Akram
Davidson
Hadlee
Roberts
Miller
Garner
Donald