The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

As I said, this isn't about Imran, doing over my teams and re evaluating Hadlee.

Regarding Imran vs Sobers, since you brought it up. The pitches in the W.I during that era, especially the 50's were flat, period. They were dead, just like in Australia between the wars and India and Sri Lanka now for the most part. Sobers cashed in, Imran was superb in Pakistan, which is one of the lest helpful places to bowl, especially when Imran played. England and Australia for the most part provided substantially more support for the fast men and Imran was no where near as good there.

Please also explain why every time I say Imran, someone says Sobers. If I mention Imran's bowling, someone mentions Sobers batting. If I mention Imran's batting, someone (and from a small group of posters) mentions Sober's bowling and his strike rate and average. I am not comparing the two, I am not trying to compare the two, they were completely different players.

 

[kyear2]

Btw, an average of 50 is what Viv averaged. Imran, for the umpteenth time, was an ATG fast bowler, I have never disputed that, all I was saying that an away average of 25.76 and strike rate of 59.2, is not good enough to be in the argument of the best ever. It just isn't

 

[OverratedSanity]

Please also explain why every time I say Imran, someone says Sobers. If I mention Imran's bowling, someone mentions Sobers batting. If I mention Imran's batting, someone (and from a small group of posters) mentions Sober's bowling and his strike rate and average. I am not comparing the two, I am not trying to compare the two, they were completely different players.

I don't like doing it, but you just display double standards on the topic which I don't enjoy at all

Btw, an average of 50 is what Viv averaged. Imran, for the umpteenth time, was an ATG fast bowler, I have never disputed that, all I was saying that an away average of 25.76 and strike rate of 59.2, is not good enough to be in the argument of the best ever. It just isn't

An away bowling average of 25.7 for Imran is pretty much as acceptable as Sobers' away average of 50. They're both very good. They were both monsters at home, and great away from home. Fail to see how such a stat can be used against either of them to exclude them from a discussion on the best ever in their fields.

 

[kyear2]

McGrath
home 1993-2007 66 131 2638.1 788 6483 289 8/24 10/27 22.43 2.45 54.7 11 2 view innings
away 1994-2005 55 106 2161.1 655 5551 260 8/38 10/78 21.35 2.56 49.8 18 1 view innings

Marshall
home 1981-1991 31 58 1112.0 206 3150 157 7/80 11/89 20.06 2.83 42.4 8 2 view innings
away 1978-1991 50 93 1818.4 408 4726 219 7/22 10/92 21.57 2.59 49.8 14 2 view innings

Steyn
home 2004-2014 40 78 1425.1 311 4578 214 6/8 11/60 21.39 3.21 39.9 14 3 view innings
away 2006-2014 31 56 1085.0 225 3607 155 7/51 10/108 23.27 3.32 42.0 10 2 view innings

Hadlee
home 1973-1990 43 75 10663 4615 201 7/23 11/58 22.96 2.59 53.0 15 3 view innings
away 1973-1990 43 75 11255 4996 230 9/52 15/123 21.72 2.66 48.9 21 6 view innings




Ambrose
home 1988-2000 52 93 1887.3 540 4302 203 8/45 11/84 21.19 2.27 55.7 11 2 view innings
away 1988-2000 46 86 1796.2 461 4199 202 7/25 10/120 20.78 2.33 53.3 11 1 view innings

Imran
home 1976-1992 38 59 7673 3131 163 8/58 14/116 19.20 2.44 47.0 10 3 view innings
away 1971-1990 50 83 11785 5127 199 7/40 12/165 25.76 2.61 59.2 13 3 view innings

 

[OverratedSanity]

McGrath
home 1993-2007 66 131 2638.1 788 6483 289 8/24 10/27 22.43 2.45 54.7 11 2 view innings
away 1994-2005 55 106 2161.1 655 5551 260 8/38 10/78 21.35 2.56 49.8 18 1 view innings

Marshall
home 1981-1991 31 58 1112.0 206 3150 157 7/80 11/89 20.06 2.83 42.4 8 2 view innings
away 1978-1991 50 93 1818.4 408 4726 219 7/22 10/92 21.57 2.59 49.8 14 2 view innings

Steyn
home 2004-2014 40 78 1425.1 311 4578 214 6/8 11/60 21.39 3.21 39.9 14 3 view innings
away 2006-2014 31 56 1085.0 225 3607 155 7/51 10/108 23.27 3.32 42.0 10 2 view innings

Hadlee
home 1973-1990 43 75 10663 4615 201 7/23 11/58 22.96 2.59 53.0 15 3 view innings
away 1973-1990 43 75 11255 4996 230 9/52 15/123 21.72 2.66 48.9 21 6 view innings




Ambrose
home 1988-2000 52 93 1887.3 540 4302 203 8/45 11/84 21.19 2.27 55.7 11 2 view innings
away 1988-2000 46 86 1796.2 461 4199 202 7/25 10/120 20.78 2.33 53.3 11 1 view innings

Imran
home 1976-1992 38 59 7673 3131 163 8/58 14/116 19.20 2.44 47.0 10 3 view innings
away 1971-1990 50 83 11785 5127 199 7/40 12/165 25.76 2.61 59.2 13 3 view innings

So?

Tendulkar:
Home: 52.6
Away: 54.74

Greg Chappell:
Home: 54.3
Away: 53

Steve Waugh:
Home: 47.6
Away: 55.8

Kallis:
Home: 56.73
Away: 54.2

Len Hutton:
Home: 57.79
Away: 55.29


Sobers:
Home: 66.8
Away: 50

 

[kyear2]

I don't like doing it, but you just display double standards on the topic which I don't enjoy at all

You are comparing apples and oranges. Compare Imran to other bowlers, not to a batsman. Additionally I have provided you with reasons why Sobers home record is superior to his away record, I can provide you with reasons why Steyn has a better home record, I can provide you with reasons why Ambrose has a better away record. Can you address the reason why Imran has such a superior home record compared to his away record, when the bowling conditions at home were less helpful than the ones in England and Australia for example.

An away bowling average of 25.7 for Imran is pretty much as acceptable as Sobers' away average of 50. They're both very good. They were both monsters at home, and great away from home. Fail to see how such a stat can be used against either of them to exclude them from a discussion on the best ever in their fields.

Everything is about context, for a batsman of Sobers attacking nature and taking into account the era in which he played and the bowlers he faced an overall average of 50 (similar to Gavaskar and Richards) still gets him to the first team as a batsman alone.

Can you say a bowling average of 25, taking into the account the era Imran played can get him into an ATG XI as a bowler alone.

Anyways, I am finished with that line of argument, as the purpose of the conversation was really for me to compare Imran and Hadlee and to get an understanding as to why Hadlee isn't generally considered for ATG XI honors. My opinion on Imran has been long settled.

Honestly don't under stand how Sobers came into the conversation.

 

[ankitj]

People on CW rate Hadlee high because people here have judgement of their own. If you are just asking a leading question to convince yourself that people are impressed "only" by stats facts, then it's pointless to even get into this debate. I had made a post about Hadlee responding to you which you would remember I believe so not repeating. Curious how you will rebutt that.

Hadlee is a giant of the game in every sense and there are times I wonder why I even rate him second to Marshall. Hadlee tops Marshall in some significant areas. "Experts" just forget about Hadlee because he did not play for one of the leading nations of Cricket (didn't play ashes)

 

[kyear2]

So?

Tendulkar:
Home: 52.6
Away: 54.74

Greg Chappell:
Home: 54.3
Away: 53

Steve Waugh:
Home: 47.6
Away: 55.8

Kallis:
Home: 56.73
Away: 54.2

Len Hutton:
Home: 57.79
Away: 55.29


Sobers:
Home: 66.8
Away: 50

You obviously ignored my previous post and any form of context.

Sobers
in Australia 1960-1969 10 20 0 927 168 46.35 4 3 1 view innings
in England 1957-1973 21 37 3 1820 174 53.52 5 9 2 view innings
in India 1958-1967 8 13 4 899 198 99.88 3 5 0 view innings
in New Zealand 1956-1969 7 10 0 151 39 15.10 0 0 2 view innings
in Pakistan 1959-1959 3 5 0 160 72 32.00 0 1 1 view innings
in West Indies 1954-1974 44 75 14 4075 365* 66.80 14 12 6 view innings

Additionally as stated above, nothing wrong with an average of 50, even in this rarefied air.

Gavaskar
home 1972-1987 65 108 7 5067 236* 50.16 16 23 6 view innings
away 1971-1986 60 106 9 5055 221 52.11 18 22 6 view innings

Richards
home 1976-1991 48 67 4 3136 182* 49.77 11 14 3 view innings
away 1974-1991 73 115 8 5404 291 50.50 13 31 7 view innings

 

[bagapath]

Let me put it this way. If an ATG team were to include sobers for his batting alone, it can include imran for his bowling alone, too. They were that good in their primary skills. But while there are arguably (marginally) five better pacers than Imran, sobers could very well be the second best batsman of all time (again, arguably). Imran's stats are among the elite bowlers but there are a few with better numbers than his. Sobers averaged 60 after 80 odd tests. That is scary.

As it happens, all ATG teams have bradman at 3 and gilly at 7. And all agree there is no one better to bat at no.6 than Gary. The selectors are saturated with the batting riches by the time it comes to picking the last four. Imran and hadlee's batting skills don't matter beyond this point.

Warne is an automatic choice for the spinner. Leggies are usually preferred over off spinners cos they benefit more from the rough outside the leg and they have better success on bouncier tracks; and warne was the best ever of that type.

Lillee is everyone's favorite fast bowler. Despite the higher average (compared to the other legends) and a dodgy record outside Australia and England, his express pace, skill and big heart make him the primus inter pares. his big performances are part of cricket folklore.

Marshall is the second choice most of the time. All round fast bowler. Express pace, that hadlee did not posses. No chink in armour in terms of skill. Great record against everyone, everywhere. No arguments. He is a shoo-in.

Many experts go for the left handed akram for variety to complete the attack; and assume sobers would chip in as the fifth bowlerv if necessary.

So Imran, hadlee, mcgrath and murali who can be an equally potent attack miss out most of the time to Lillee, marshall, Warne and akram for purely non statistical reasons. Steyn, Ambrose and Trueman are always the unlucky ones that they don't even make it to the final argument.

But the "unluckiest" of all, imo, is Walter Hammond. He was as good as Hobbs and Hutton who open most ATG XIs (with sunny coming in for hutton sometimes) and he never makes it to these teams ever. Cardus' essay on his slow batting (SR of 38 from recorded scores) is a serious one that may have worked against him. I don't, otherwise, have any reason why he is not an automatic choice at 4 or 5 over tendulkar or viv who are the usual selections.

The most popular First XI: Hutton, Hobbs, Bradman, Tendulkar, V. Richards, Sobers, Gilchrist +, Akram, Marshall, Warne, Lillee

The usual Second XI: Gavaskar, B. Richards, G. Headley, Lara, Hammond, Imran, Knott +, Hadlee, Murali, O'Reilly, McGrath.

 

[ankitj]

Incidentally, I was browsing this old thread today: http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cri...owler-survival-grand-final-2.html#post2237033

CW rated Hadlee 2nd after Marshall. One of the reasons I liked CW is that it agreed with most of my views that were counter to the expert opinions. Hadlee is just one of them.

 

[kyear2]

People on CW rate Hadlee high because people here have judgement of their own. If you are just asking a leading question to convince yourself that people are impressed "only" by stats facts, then it's pointless to even get into this debate. I had made a post about Hadlee responding to you which you would remember I believe so not repeating. Curious how you will rebutt that.

Hadlee is a giant of the game in every sense and there are times I wonder why I even rate him second to Marshall. Hadlee tops Marshall in some significant areas. "Experts" just forget about Hadlee because he did not play for one of the leading nations of Cricket (didn't play ashes)

I don't recall the post, but I think is has to be more than just forgetting him. I agree that there is no category where Lillee is seen to be better than him, yet most still rate Lillee higher. I genuinely don't understand how Akram is rated higher than him either.

I was making my second team and was penciling in Hadlee, just find it astounding that none of the acclaimed XI's include him, but Akram and Lillee are staples.

I was genuinely looking for a healthy conversation, that though obviously didn't last long but I will go with Sir Richard.

 

[ankitj]

Kyear - how do you say Hadlee relied on pitch assistance? His bowling average and strike rate in subcontinent are better than Marshall and McGrath. See this story: Stats analysis: Richard Hadlee | Specials | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo. You would argue that it is because of the exceptional 12.29 average in SL, but he also averages about the same as his overall average in India. Only in Pakistan he has a poor average but that's because he played only one series there in 1976, which was before 1978 at which time he developed into a champion bowler. Even against India, he played one series in 1976 where he averages 35 or so. In the other series he played in India in 80's, he averaged a ridiculous 14.xx. So how exactly do you make your argument?

It's interesting that you gloss over Lillee's record in Pakistan. If the silly small sample size of Lillee's salvages him, then take out Hadlee's 3 matches in Pakistan too which is the only dark spot in his record.

It is actually quite surprising that Hadlee doesn't get the same amount of praise from "experts" as Lillee and Marshall do. Hadlee's record is just extra ordinary for following reasons:

• Stats. Just great, anyway you look at it. Did it against everyone and all over the world.
• Tremendous impact that he had on NZ cricket. Last time when I looked at series by series performances, IIRC Hadlee was the leading wicket taker on either side in 8 out of the 9 NZ test series victories against strong oppositions (excluding SL). And this includes at least one series against each of the 5 main oppositions.
• Longevity. He played for 17 years, and till he was 39. He was mighty effective till the very end. In this respect, one can argue that he outdid Marshall comfortably. Marshall played for 13 years, and only till he was 33.

With a resume like this, I don't see how he can be put in anything but the top bracket. For mine, the second best fast bowler after Marshall (don't know what Barnes classifies as so keeping him out) just ahead of Ambrose and McGrath.

​Here you go. Hadlee

 

[kyear2]

Let me put it this way. If an ATG team were to include sobers for his batting alone, it can include imran for his bowling alone, too. They were that good in their primary skills. But while there are arguably (marginally) five better pacers than Imran, sobers could very well be the second best batsman of all time (again, arguably). Imran's stats are among the elite bowlers but there are a few with better numbers than his. Sobers averaged 60 after 80 odd tests. That is scary.

As it happens, all ATG teams have bradman at 3 and gilly at 7. And all agree there is no one better to bat at no.6 than Gary. The selectors are saturated with the batting riches by the time it comes to picking the last four. Imran and hadlee's batting skills don't matter beyond this point.

Warne is an automatic choice for the spinner. Leggies are usually preferred over off spinners cos they benefit more from the rough outside the leg and they have better success on bouncier tracks; and warne was the best ever of that type.

Lillee is everyone's favorite fast bowler. Despite the higher average (compared to the other legends) and a dodgy record outside Australia and England, his express pace, skill and big heart make him the primus inter pares. his big performances are part of cricket folklore.

Marshall is the second choice most of the time. All round fast bowler. Express pace, that hadlee did not posses. No chink in armour in terms of skill. Great record against everyone, everywhere. No arguments. He is a shoo-in.

Many experts go for the left handed akram for variety to complete the attack and assume sobers would chip in as the fifth bowlerv if necessary.

So Imran, hadlee, mcgrath and murali who can be an equally potent attack miss our most of the time to Lillee, marshall, Warne and akram for purely non statistical reasons. Steyn, Ambrose and Trueman are always the unlucky ones that they don't even make it to the final argument.

But the "unluckiest" of all, imo, is Walter Hammond. He was as good as Hobbs and Hutton who open most ATG XIs (with sunny coming in for hutton sometimes) and he never makes it to these teams ever. Cardus' essay on his slow batting (SR of 38 from recorded scores) is a serious one that may have worked against him. I don't, otherwise, have any reason why he is not an automatic choice at 4 or 5 over tendulkar or viv who are the usual selections.

Plenty of excellent points made here, I disagree with a few, but well articulated.

I believe through that the Lillee mystique is beginning to wear as Marshall is beginning to be named to more of these teams that Lillee, at an almost unanimous rate, some of those teams that include both may have Lillee ahead of Marshall (no way to tell) but Marshall is named to all of them. Steyn I expect may usurp Lillee in time.

The Akram argument makes sense, I don't conform to it, but in a actual team scenario it would make sense.

I am personally not a fan of Hammond both for his extremely slow scoring, especially for a No. 3 and what was obviously a weakness vs fast bowling in tests, especially short pitched bowling. For a No. 3 both are unacceptable at an ATG first team level, but that of course is just my opinion. His slip fielding and useful bowling are of course excellent counter arguments, just not good enough for a first team.

 

[ankitj]

Duplicate post removed.

 

[OverratedSanity]

You obviously ignored my previous post and any form of context.

Sobers
in Australia 1960-1969 10 20 0 927 168 46.35 4 3 1 view innings
in England 1957-1973 21 37 3 1820 174 53.52 5 9 2 view innings
in India 1958-1967 8 13 4 899 198 99.88 3 5 0 view innings
in New Zealand 1956-1969 7 10 0 151 39 15.10 0 0 2 view innings
in Pakistan 1959-1959 3 5 0 160 72 32.00 0 1 1 view innings
in West Indies 1954-1974 44 75 14 4075 365* 66.80 14 12 6 view innings

Additionally as stated above, nothing wrong with an average of 50, even in this rarefied air.

Gavaskar
home 1972-1987 65 108 7 5067 236* 50.16 16 23 6 view innings
away 1971-1986 60 106 9 5055 221 52.11 18 22 6 view innings

Richards
home 1976-1991 48 67 4 3136 182* 49.77 11 14 3 view innings
away 1974-1991 73 115 8 5404 291 50.50 13 31 7 view innings

Look, I know I'm infuriating you a bit here. I only bring in Sobers because he's obviously one of you're favorite players and you'll relate better if he's involved. All I'm saying is that you saying Sobers' away average of 50 is good enough, then Imran's away average of 25 is too. I just don't see why you're repeating again and again that 25.7 is a bad enough average to exclude Imran from the discussion for best ever. It's as stupid an argument as saying Sobers doesn't belong up there with Tendulkar, Chappell etc just because he averages 2-3 points less than them away from home.

It's all just dumb. Imran produced several great spells and won numerous tests for Pakistan overseas in places like England, West Indies and Australia. Who gives a **** if he averages a measly 2 points higher than the others. And who gives a **** if Sobers averages less overseas than Tendulkar? Is that enough to say he sin't as good? **** no.

You just don't hold your favorites to the same standard, kyear. That is all.

 

[Prince EWS]

Kyear, if you think the 'experts' you revere so much don't rate Imran as highly as some people on CW do because they've taken a career of a decent size and broken it up into fifteen little bits, all with significantly greater chances of distortion, in order to a conduct a convoluted analysis via checklist.. and then concluded that he averages 2 runs more than someone else away from home and is therefore inferior, I reckon you're dead wrong.

 

[akilana]

Home/away argument is nonsense. Ponting averaged 46 away but still considered equal to Kallis. Lara averaged 47 and is considered equal to Sachin.

 

[Prince EWS]

Home/away argument is nonsense. Ponting averaged 46 away but still considered equal to Kallis. Lara averaged 47 and is considered equal to Sachin.

Home/away breakdown for batsmen to me only matters in the sense of someone playing a disproportionate amount of their games at home or away from home. If you're playing 60% of your games at home then you're going to have an advantage, as playing at home is typically easier for most players.

I totally reject the notion that someone who averages 50 at home and 50 away is somehow better than someone else who averages 70 at home and 35 away (assuming all other things equal of course) just because he apparently conquered all surfaces. I do actually think it's a bit different for bowlers because bowling works so much differently to batting, but as a batsman you're going to have your good games and your bad games regardless; if your good games group together at home to the point that you're absurdly good there then you can absolutely make up for a 'poor' away record. Roughly half a player's games will be at home afterall, so while away Tests may be a 'better test of skill' or however you want to spin it, they're not intrinsically more important.

 

[kyear2]

Kyear, if you think the 'experts' you revere so much don't rate Imran as highly as some people on CW do because they've taken a career of a decent size and broken it up into fifteen little bits, all with significantly greater chances of distortion, in order to a conduct a convoluted analysis via checklist.. and then concluded that he averages 2 runs more than someone else away from home and is therefore inferior, I reckon you're dead wrong.

But I agree with you. It may likely be partially due to his away record, but it must be more than that.

 

[kyear2]

Look, I know I'm infuriating you a bit here. I only bring in Sobers because he's obviously one of you're favorite players and you'll relate better if he's involved. All I'm saying is that you saying Sobers' away average of 50 is good enough, then Imran's away average of 25 is too. I just don't see why you're repeating again and again that 25.7 is a bad enough average to exclude Imran from the discussion for best ever. It's as stupid an argument as saying Sobers doesn't belong up there with Tendulkar, Chappell etc just because he averages 2-3 points less than them away from home.

It's all just dumb. Imran produced several great spells and won numerous tests for Pakistan overseas in places like England, West Indies and Australia. Who gives a **** if he averages a measly 2 points higher than the others. And who gives a **** if Sobers averages less overseas than Tendulkar? Is that enough to say he sin't as good? **** no.

You just don't hold your favorites to the same standard, kyear. That is all.

Sobers may be favorite cricketer, but I rate a Viv the better batsman because Viv didn't get to face minnows and in his prime he batted primarily at 3, not at 5 or 6. He also was more consistent re home and away. Lara again I rate behind Sachin because of consistently though Lara had the higher and more exciting peaks.

Don't get me wrong, I still rate Sobers top 3 as a batsman, because of his attacking nature etc and his away average of 50 held in isolation would still be good enough to get him into an ATG XI as a batsman alone. What I was saying is that Imran's away average held in isolation isn't enough to get him into consideration for an ATG XI on its own. Thankfully it's not held in isolation but he still isn't an automatic or regular selectee even with his home record and batting factored in.
I have come around to the belief that Hadlee is more deserving because of his more rounded bowling record, even though he too barely missed out.