The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

Yeah. Viv is overrated.

True. He was awesome in the middle order. Should not be asked to open, considering his partner is just a first class giant. your team will have bradman at the wicket within the first hour.

 

[AldoRaine18]

Not only did he get tough personalities to work well he lifted his game to another level when he was captain.

As a matter of coincidence I have been watching a few of the youtube footage taken from documentaries like interviews about Imran and it really seems he was a brilliant natural leader. So matured, clear in his thoughts and vision, as good a student as you would get of the art of fast bowling and a great influence for youngsters in the team. The way the likes of Wasim talked about him you could see how much he contributed in shaping their career.

Personally I prefer personalities such as this if you ask me who should "lead" a group of players, let alone stars. Maybe someone like Taylor was tactically more astute and more capable of changing the game with a bit of brilliant strategy, but at the end of the day you need someone everyone looks up to, someone who leads by example, someone who's there for you to support you whenever you are going through a bad patch and need help, etc.

I seem to have read/heard similar things about Frank Worrell, that he was a great leader and personality who was adored by everyone. I might be wrong but I haven't seen his name taken as much as some others when discussing great captains. I think it was Richie Benaud who was in awe of him as a leader and a person.

 

[smash84]

As a matter of coincidence I have been watching a few of the youtube footage taken from documentaries like interviews about Imran and it really seems he was a brilliant natural leader. So matured, clear in his thoughts and vision, as good a student as you would get of the art of fast bowling and a great influence for youngsters in the team. The way the likes of Wasim talked about him you could see how much he contributed in shaping their career.

Personally I prefer personalities such as this if you ask me who should "lead" a group of players, let alone stars. Maybe someone like Taylor was tactically more astute and more capable of changing the game with a bit of brilliant strategy, but at the end of the day you need someone everyone looks up to, someone who leads by example, someone who's there for you to support you whenever you are going through a bad patch and need help, etc.

I seem to have read/heard similar things about Frank Worrell, that he was a great leader and personality who was adored by everyone. I might be wrong but I haven't seen his name taken as much as some others when discussing great captains. I think it was Richie Benaud who was in awe of him as a leader and a person.

I agree with you on this. Michael Holding just summed up Imran's captaincy perfectly IMO. He said "When Imran Khan walked out onto the field, the ten men with him, believed in him, believed in the team that he was leading, and believed that Pakistan could achieve anything." That's the kind of guy i would want to be leading my team. Obviously you don't want a complete dumbass as a tactician (which he wasn't either) but he was always attacking and always looking to win.

 

[akilana]

True. He was awesome in the middle order. Should not be asked to open, considering his partner is just a first class giant. your team will have bradman at the wicket within the first hour.

Bradman would walk in to bat after the openers destroyed the bowling attack and get out for a duck.

 

[harsh.ag]

Public Service Announcement: Be wary of people who don't like the idea of Barry and Viv opening the batting. They may be paedophiles, or worse, anglophiles.

 

[Red]

Victor Trumper
Arthur Morris
Don Bradman
Greg Chappell
Keith Miller
Neil Harvey
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Dennis Lillee
Bill O'Reilly
Glenn McGrath

Settled on this now. For today.

 

[andmark]

My dad made a decent point. He said that in terms of choosing an opening pair, you should look for a pair; not two individual batsmen. So instead of say Hayden and Sutcliffe, you might be better off with Hayden and Langer or Hobbs and Sutcliffe. I reckon it's a decent idea given how the two would have to interact with each other and communicating and whatnot.

 

[watson]

Best Averages XI

Highest batting average in each batting position (1 to 7) with greater than 2000 runs.

Lowest bowling Average for each bowling position (opening bowlers, first change, and second change) with greater than 100 wickets.

England XI
01. Len Hutton
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Ken Barrington
04. Peter May
05. Graham Thorpe
06. Tony Greig
07. Alan Knott
08. Ian Botham
09. Fred Trueman
10. Derek Underwood
11. Sydney Barnes

Australia XI
01. Bob Simpson
02. Bill Woodfull
03. Don Bradman
04. Greg Chappell
05. Michael Clarke
06. Allan Border
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Alan Davidson
09. Shane Warne
10. Clarrie Grimmett
11. Glenn McGrath

West Indies XI
01. Gordon Greenidge
02. Conrad Hunte
03. George Headley
04. Everton Weekes
05. Chivnarine Chanderpaul
06. Garry Sobers
07. Jeff Dujon
08. Malcolm Marshall
09. Joel Garner
10. Courtney Walsh
11. Lance Gibbs

India XI
01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Virender Sehwag
03. Rahul Dravid
04. Sachin Tendulkar
05. Mohammad Azharuddin
06. VVS Laxman
07. Kapil Dev
08. MS Dhoni
09. Javagal Srinnath
10. Subhash Gupte
11. Bhagwath Chandrasekhar

South Africa XI
01. Bruce Mitchell
02. Graeme Smith
03. Hashim Amla
04. Jacques Kallis
05. Ashwell Prince
06. AB de Villiers
07. Mark Boucher
08. Vernon Philander
09. Hugh Tayfield
10. Morne Morkel
11. Neil Adcock

(Yes that's right - Adcock and Philander have better averages as opening bowlers than Steyn and Donald)

Pakistan XI
01. Saeed Anwar
02. Hanif Mohammad
03. Younis Khan
04. Mohammad Yousuf
05. Zaheer Abbas
06. Asif Iqbal
07. Imran Khan
08. Kamran Akmal
09. Abdul Qadir
10. Saqlain Mushtaq
11. Mohammad Asif

(Mohammad Asif has a better average as an opening bowler than Wasim or Waqar)

 

[harsh.ag]

Quick question. Was Tony Greig England's best batsman of the 70s? Because all I hear about England vs Lillee-Thommo and Windies-Pace-attack is that he was the only one who handled them well during that time.

 

[NUFAN]

England XI
Highest batting average in each batting position (1 to 7) with greater than 2000 runs.
Lowest bowling Average for each bowling position (opening bowlers, first change, and second change) with greater than 100 wickets.

01. Len Hutton
02. Herbert Sutcliffe
03. Ken Barrington
04. Peter May
05. Graham Thorpe
06. Tony Greig
07. Alan Knott
08. Ian Botham
09. Fred Trueman
10. Derek Underwood
11. Sydney Barnes

vs.

1 Peter Richardson
2 Michael Atherton
3 Mark Butcher
4 Nasser Hussain
5 Paul Collingwood
6 Ian Botham
7 Matt Prior
8 Ashley Giles
9 Phil DeFreitas
10 Steve Harmison
11 Devon Malcolm

Yes Beefy is in both teams..

 

[fredfertang]

Quick question. Was Tony Greig England's best batsman of the 70s? Because all I hear about England vs Lillee-Thommo and Windies-Pace-attack is that he was the only one who handled them well during that time.

I'd hesitate to say he was the best, but he was utterly defiant, and until he got into bed with Packer was immensely popular

 

[watson]

Highest Average against Lillee and Thomson. Three Tests or more.

David Steel (3) = 61
John Edrich (7) = 48
Alan Knott (9) = 39
Tony Grieg (9) = 36

And the rest......

Which is why I don't mind picking Alan Knott in my ATG team. Very good batsman against true fast bowling.

Also, John Edrich is unjustly overlooked when we go searching for great opening batsman IMO.

 

[andmark]

Highest Average against Lillee and Thomson. Three Tests or more.

David Steel (3) = 61
John Edrich (7) = 48
Alan Knott (9) = 39
Tony Grieg (9) = 36

And the rest......

Which is why I don't mind picking Alan Knott in my ATG team. Very good batsman against true fast bowling.

Also, John Edrich is unjustly overlooked when we go searching for great opening batsman IMO.

For someone who was able to give two fingers to Lillee and Thompson, David Steel was treated very harshly. I realise he ran into some bad form and his FC career wasn't so notable, but standing up to the Australians so defiantly should have earned him some loyalty

 

[fredfertang]

For someone who was able to give two fingers to Lillee and Thompson, David Steel was treated very harshly. I realise he ran into some bad form and his FC career wasn't so notable, but standing up to the Australians so defiantly should have earned him some loyalty

I agree with you, but he wasn't expected to be suited to India in 76/77, and was 36 by the time the '77 Aussies arrived - he played the quicks with great courage and some panache, but he did ride his luck, and had the selectors stuck by him I think his career would have quickly fizzled out, which would have spoiled what remains a great story

 

[Debris]

Public Service Announcement: Be wary of people who don't like the idea of Barry and Viv opening the batting. They may be paedophiles, or worse, anglophiles.

I am going to be magnanimous here, and assume that this was a failed attempt at humour.

 

[Red]

Best Averages XI

Good work. Just curious though….George Lohmann?

Edit…guessing you mean 100 wickets in each individual bowling position?

 

[Red]

Those teams are all very solid aren't they? Hard to argue.

 

[watson]

Good work. Just curious though….George Lohmann?

Edit…guessing you mean 100 wickets in each individual bowling position?

Lohmann didn't make the 100 wicket cutoff for either opening bowler or first change duties. I did slacken the cutoffs for South Africa, India, and Pakistan a little so I could actually get a player to fit the criteria. But there was no problem getting batsman or bowlers with England.

 

[NUFAN]

Ashwell Prince at 5 for South Africa was not who I expected.

I didn't think Warne would make it either. Thought there would be someone else not opening the bowling to average under 25 with 100 wickets from Australia.

 

[watson]

Those teams are all very solid aren't they? Hard to argue.

While the teams are probably not the strongest they are 'solid' as you say, and do highlight the fact that we forget batsman like Graham Thorpe who was obviously a cracking middle-order batsman.

Also, we don't often think of leg-spinners as being first-change bowlers these days, but Grimmett, Gupte, and Qadir picked up a stack of wickets coming on immediately after the new ball quicks.