The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Coronis]

Qualifies to a world atg Xi or close to it.

I mean how do you define close? That I’d consider them for a position?

Then

Aus
Bradman
Smith
Gilchrist
McGrath
Warne

Eng
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Knott
Barnes

SA
Kallis
Steyn

WI
Lara
Sobers
Marshall
Ambrose

NZ
Hadlee

India
Gavaskar
Tendulkar

Pakistan
Imran
Wasim

SL
Murali

23 players so yeah. Could almost make my first two XIs from that list. Headley and Pollock could possibly be added with asterisks.

Would make my highest ranked batsman not being considered Chappell. Pacer - Donald. Spinner - O’Reilly. Keeper - Sanga.

Of current players I could only see Bumrah and Pant making it into consideration at this point. If Root has a successful Ashes downunder would I rank him above Chappell/Barrington/Sanga/Richards/Ponting to force his way in? idk about that.

Basically @subshakerz criteria for ATG

 

[kyear2]

What’s A tier meant to be?

Whom I consider to be legit ATG, around 13 bowlers, and 18 batsmen.

The elite guys in history.

 

[kyear2]

Qualifies to a world atg Xi or close to it.

Would at least make a short list.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I mean how do you define close? That I’d consider them for a position?

Then

Aus
Bradman
Smith
Gilchrist
McGrath
Warne

Eng
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Hammond
Knott
Barnes

SA
Kallis
Steyn

WI
Lara
Sobers
Marshall
Ambrose

NZ
Hadlee

India
Gavaskar
Tendulkar

Pakistan
Imran
Wasim

SL
Murali

23 players so yeah. Could almost make my first two XIs from that list. Headley and Pollock could possibly be added with asterisks.

Would make my highest ranked batsman not being considered Chappell. Pacer - Donald. Spinner - O’Reilly. Keeper - Sanga.

Of current players I could only see Bumrah and Pant making it into consideration at this point. If Root has a successful Ashes downunder would I rank him above Chappell/Barrington/Sanga/Richards/Ponting to force his way in? idk about that.

Basically @subshakerz criteria for ATG

I would Sangakkara and O'Reilly to the list, but agree with the rest.

 

[ataraxia]

Nourse isn't up there for me.

Why not?

 

[Coronis]

I would Sangakkara and O'Reilly to the list, but agree with the rest.

My thinking on those two - I think O’Reilly is an ATG, but there’s a clear gap between him and the big two, which makes them the only ones I’d consider picking. I can’t see myself ever picking him above either of those two, and there’s only one spot they’re fighting for.

With Sanga, if I’m considering him for the keeper slot, he doesn’t come close to Gilchrist as a keeper/bat and he doesn’t have the skills of Knott. So again, blockaded by two guys. And I’m not considering him for a middle order slot alone, with 7 or 8 blokes in line ahead of him.

 

[kyear2]

Why not?

Because Dravid barely makes it. Waugh, the 3 W's, Javed, Barrington, doesn't even make that tier.

 

[capt_Luffy]

My thinking on those two - I think O’Reilly is an ATG, but there’s a clear gap between him and the big two, which makes them the only ones I’d consider picking. I can’t see myself ever picking him above either of those two, and there’s only one spot they’re fighting for.

With Sanga, if I’m considering him for the keeper slot, he doesn’t come close to Gilchrist as a keeper/bat and he doesn’t have the skills of Knott. So again, blockaded by two guys. And I’m not considering him for a middle order slot alone, with 7 or 8 blokes in line ahead of him.

I can see myself picking Sangakkara, given I take two spinners and bat Imran at 7; as I would need a batsman more suited to bat at top order. To begin with, I think Gilchrist is ahead as he was a slightly better keeper, more suited to bat 7 and most importantly, kept in all his matches. Like, if we go by Sangakkara averaging 57 with bat (which would be dishonest) then we have to take him ahead. So, Sangakkara is in contention for me.
Re O'Reilly, I think Warner/Murali are better, but only due to longevity. O'Reilly did better in flatter pitches and him averaging 16 odd in Sheffield Shield is bonkers. So yeah, O'Reilly is also in contention for me.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Because Dravid barely makes it. Waugh, the 3 W's, Javed, Barrington, doesn't even make that tier.

Waugh not making is criminal. It's borderline you not rating him for not liking him.

 

[kyear2]

I would Sangakkara and O'Reilly to the list, but agree with the rest.

IVA Richards?

 

[Coronis]

I can see myself picking Sangakkara, given I take two spinners and bat Imran at 7; as I would need a batsman more suited to bat at top order. To begin with, I think Gilchrist is ahead as he was a slightly better keeper, more suited to bat 7 and most importantly, kept in all his matches. Like, if we go by Sangakkara averaging 57 with bat (which would be dishonest) then we have to take him ahead. So, Sangakkara is in contention for me.
Re O'Reilly, I think Warner/Murali are better, but only due to longevity. O'Reilly did better in flatter pitches and him averaging 16 odd in Sheffield Shield is bonkers. So yeah, O'Reilly is also in contention for me.

You have two spinners? Whats the lineup?

Ponting not making is criminal. It's borderline you not rating him for not liking him.

Too easy.

 

[capt_Luffy]

IVA Richards?

Didn't saw he wasn't in.

 

[capt_Luffy]

You have two spinners? Whats the lineup?




Too easy.

I don't have two spinners. I said "if" I had 2 spinners.

Hobbs
Grace
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Sangakkara+
Sobers
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Murali

And comeon now, I rate Ponting fairly high. Just think placing him in a separate tier to someone like Waugh, Dravid, Sangakkara or heck Kallis, is mental.

 

[Coronis]

Well again from my pov.

Obviously Bradman has a monopoly on the 3.

Kallis and Sobers are there for both disciplines. That leaves me 2 middle order slots, so I have Hammond, Tendulkar, Lara, Smith.

I think have 2x players for the amount of spots in an XI as candidates is a reasonable point, with the exception of #3.

Then I have a couple extra bowlers in there as contenders due to their unique skillsets - Barnes and Wasim.

 

[kyear2]

Waugh not making is criminal. It's borderline you not rating him for not liking him.

It's the absolute elite, the greatest ever.

And re short list, I always think like a Benaud short list like he used for his at xi, but agree with Coronis, that just numbers for the sake of it, if you're not being seriously considered is kinda pointless.

But yeah, it's who I consider to be bullet proof ATGs

Bradman | Tendulkar | Sobers | Richards | Hobbs | Lara | Smith | Hutton | (Richards*)

Gavaskar | Chappell | Kallis | Hammond | Ponting

Border | Sangakkara | Headley | Pollock | Dravid


Marshall | McGrath | Hadlee

Steyn | Warne | Muralitharan | Ambrose

Imran | Lillee | Donald | Akram | O'Reilly

Holding | Lindwall


Gilchrist | Knott

 

[kyear2]

Didn't saw he wasn't in.

Was just saying, from Coronis's list you said you would only add O'Reilly and Sangakkara, Richards was also omitted from his list. All I meant.

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's the absolute elite, the greatest ever.

And re short list, I always think like a Benaud short list like he used for his at xi, but agree with Coronis, that just numbers for the sake of it, if you're not being seriously considered is kinda pointless.

But yeah, it's who I consider to be bullet proof ATGs

Bradman | Tendulkar | Sobers | Richards | Hobbs | Lara | Smith | Hutton | (Richards*)

Gavaskar | Chappell | Kallis | Hammond | Ponting

Border | Sangakkara | Headley | Pollock | Dravid


Marshall | McGrath | Hadlee

Steyn | Warne | Muralitharan | Ambrose

Imran | Lillee | Donald | Akram | O'Reilly

Holding | Lindwall


Gilchrist | Knott

As I said, at worst, Waugh is equal to Dravid. He definitely is there.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Garners gotta be there as well

 

[Coronis]

If I was to do a Benaud style thing.

Openers
Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Boycott, Gavaskar, Smith

Middle order (3-5)
Hammond, Bradman, Barrington, Chappell, Richards, Tendulkar, Lara, Sangakkara, Smith

(Batting mostly) Allrounder
Miller, Sobers, Kallis

Keeper
Ames, Knott, Gilchrist

Fast Bowlers
Barnes, Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Wasim, Ambrose, Donald, McGrath, Steyn

Spin Bowlers
O’Reilly, Warne, Murali

In picking the actual XIs though, Miller perhaps would be removed from the third XI. I might go with say, Sobers/Hammond/Kallis as the batting ARs and add in Ponting.

Closest current players in each category to breaking into this list currently, by likelihood.

Pant
Bumrah
Root
Khawaja
Ashwin
Shakib

 

[Coronis]

I don't have two spinners. I said "if" I had 2 spinners.

Hobbs
Grace
Bradman*
Tendulkar
Sangakkara+
Sobers
Imran
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Murali

And comeon now, I rate Ponting fairly high. Just think placing him in a separate tier to someone like Waugh, Dravid, Sangakkara or heck Kallis, is mental.

Assuming the top order remains the same with that team I’d probably bump Sobers to 5 and put Gilly in at 6th. Imran being not that aggressive of a batsman I think you’d want Gilly. But yeah either way you get a keeper who kept to either Warne or Murali.