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The Argonaut salary method
- Thread starter The Argonaut
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The Argonaut
State Vice-Captain
Taking this step is a big adjustment to the comp and should not be taken lightly. A couple of comments about some previous posts.
One concept that has caused debate is that different divisions should get differing amounts to spend. My proposal is that everyone gets the same for the first changeover. Let's keep it as simple as possible to start with. Then with the introduction of prizemoney and fines that the next changeover will see that the higher divisions will have more money to spend. I agree with aditya that prizes for winning comps should be in place as well as winning game bonuses. However the 4D and 1D comps should eb viewed equally not 4D greater than 1d.
In terms of working out the salaries, I think that stats are the only thing that should be taken into account. The sims are based on stats alone. Not on age or experience. This keeps everything simple and less subjective. I have worked out some formulas and once I've done some testing with current sides then I'll send them to Blewy for comment.
The only discount on salary that I feel should be considered is for first year rookies. Pay them 50% of salary if you are keeping them. It would go back to 100% for the next season. If you let them go to the draft they are picked up at 100% cost. To keep it simple it may be decided to scrap that idea.
If managers run out of money for round 5 or 6 draft picks then replacing their first round pick with a cheap player would be a good option.
Although ultimately this will come down to a board decision I think that the opinion of each manager must be found out before any decision is made.
One concept that has caused debate is that different divisions should get differing amounts to spend. My proposal is that everyone gets the same for the first changeover. Let's keep it as simple as possible to start with. Then with the introduction of prizemoney and fines that the next changeover will see that the higher divisions will have more money to spend. I agree with aditya that prizes for winning comps should be in place as well as winning game bonuses. However the 4D and 1D comps should eb viewed equally not 4D greater than 1d.
In terms of working out the salaries, I think that stats are the only thing that should be taken into account. The sims are based on stats alone. Not on age or experience. This keeps everything simple and less subjective. I have worked out some formulas and once I've done some testing with current sides then I'll send them to Blewy for comment.
The only discount on salary that I feel should be considered is for first year rookies. Pay them 50% of salary if you are keeping them. It would go back to 100% for the next season. If you let them go to the draft they are picked up at 100% cost. To keep it simple it may be decided to scrap that idea.
If managers run out of money for round 5 or 6 draft picks then replacing their first round pick with a cheap player would be a good option.
Although ultimately this will come down to a board decision I think that the opinion of each manager must be found out before any decision is made.
age_master
Hall of Fame Member
1) number of games played i believe does affect the player and they are more likley to perform near that average, if they have played very few games it could go either way
2) i would say that if anything divisions should get different money when its implemented and than it should be eveed out rather than the other way (though i personally think it should always be more for higher divisions) cause its not really fair for the better teams to have to lose players that they have accumulated...
3) i like the rookie discount
4) i thinnk either blewy should send an email to all managers asking them what they think OR a simple poll, i think the email would be more thorough though
2) i would say that if anything divisions should get different money when its implemented and than it should be eveed out rather than the other way (though i personally think it should always be more for higher divisions) cause its not really fair for the better teams to have to lose players that they have accumulated...
3) i like the rookie discount
4) i thinnk either blewy should send an email to all managers asking them what they think OR a simple poll, i think the email would be more thorough though
Ive had a read of the proposal and have some queries about the draft picks. So at the end of the season when we are making our picks are we offering amounts to purchase the players in the draft? or are we offering a contract amount to the player? Either way i see no problem about running out of money cos if i offer a contract i wont have to pay to the end of the following season, or if we are making bids to purchase the players whats stopping me from making ridiculously low bids for bad players?
Neil Pickup
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Deckard - my take on it was that you pay a fixed contract amount to the players in the draft
A qualified agreement from me on this proposal.
Points of contention:
If squads have the same budget and players' salaries are worked out off formulae then all teams will have very, very closely matched squads. I'm not sure that this is all that good.
Perhaps salaries could be weighted off past seasons' form?
Example) M Trescothick has an average of 40 and salary of $80k, but he only averages 33 in the previous season, so his salary for the next year is $66k. Just an idea, and I can see the obvious flaws (i.e. if a team has an excellent season, they'll be destroyed the next year - an argument for prize money)
A qualified agreement from me on this proposal.
Points of contention:
If squads have the same budget and players' salaries are worked out off formulae then all teams will have very, very closely matched squads. I'm not sure that this is all that good.
Perhaps salaries could be weighted off past seasons' form?
Example) M Trescothick has an average of 40 and salary of $80k, but he only averages 33 in the previous season, so his salary for the next year is $66k. Just an idea, and I can see the obvious flaws (i.e. if a team has an excellent season, they'll be destroyed the next year - an argument for prize money)
The Argonaut
State Vice-Captain
My view for the draft was that you paid the salary amount. There is no bidding. First in best dressed.
Neil has raised some very good points. To some extent the example will occur but not the large swing. Trescothick's average may only go down to 39 or something like that and his salary would go down to $78k using that formula.
I have developed a formula and have worked out most of teh division 1 and 2 sides using it. The total salary bill for 16 players for most sides is $650k - $700k. However two sides are around the $800k mark. Neil is right in that a salary cap which is essentially what I am proposing will even up the sides if it is flat across all sides. These two sides would have to shed big name players to make it under. There will be some very good players available in the draft becuase of the inclusion of some big names in the academy series so the cap may be something in the order of $750k. Some sides will be able to improve their value to this mark using the draft.
I will work out the division 5 sides to see if they are way behind the rest. The board must consider whether it gives more money to the division 1 sides and so on and risk alienating the lower division managers.
The form factor is the key word. There is no form factor in these sims so it is extremely hard to get a handle on it when working things out. It should not be taken into account.
It is hard to gauge opinion on this as there are a lot of fence sitters. That will change once something definite is on the table. The board looks to be split down the middle, I would say. I would also invite any other managers to come with any other proposals. There may be better options out there.
Neil has raised some very good points. To some extent the example will occur but not the large swing. Trescothick's average may only go down to 39 or something like that and his salary would go down to $78k using that formula.
I have developed a formula and have worked out most of teh division 1 and 2 sides using it. The total salary bill for 16 players for most sides is $650k - $700k. However two sides are around the $800k mark. Neil is right in that a salary cap which is essentially what I am proposing will even up the sides if it is flat across all sides. These two sides would have to shed big name players to make it under. There will be some very good players available in the draft becuase of the inclusion of some big names in the academy series so the cap may be something in the order of $750k. Some sides will be able to improve their value to this mark using the draft.
I will work out the division 5 sides to see if they are way behind the rest. The board must consider whether it gives more money to the division 1 sides and so on and risk alienating the lower division managers.
The form factor is the key word. There is no form factor in these sims so it is extremely hard to get a handle on it when working things out. It should not be taken into account.
It is hard to gauge opinion on this as there are a lot of fence sitters. That will change once something definite is on the table. The board looks to be split down the middle, I would say. I would also invite any other managers to come with any other proposals. There may be better options out there.
The Argonaut
State Vice-Captain
The formula that I have developed works like this.
Players get a batting and bowling salary which when added together makes up their salary. the batting is easy. Add the one day average and four day average and divide by 2. This gets done for bowlers and batsmen. For example, one day average 42, four day average 38 - salary = $40k.
The bowling is more complicated and works exponentially. The players are given a salary based on strike rate. These are different for one and four day stats because a good bowler in one day has strike rate of 30 whereas for four day it is 45. I will give full details later. the one day component is then multiplied by the overs per match and divided by 10. The four day component is multiplied by the overs per match and divided by 30, any with an over per match greater than 30 just gets 100% of nominated salary. 30 was chosen as an arbitrary number of overs most good bowlers bowl. Using 10 and 30 also means that part time bowlers only get a partial bowling salary.
Example:
One day SR=30, Salary $50k OPM=8, Adjusted salary $40k
Four day SR=45, Salary $50k OPM=15, Adjusted salary $25k
Overall bowling salary $32.5k
I am releasing this info now so that people have time to comment on the whole proposal. I will include more detail on the bowling salary rates in the near future.
Players get a batting and bowling salary which when added together makes up their salary. the batting is easy. Add the one day average and four day average and divide by 2. This gets done for bowlers and batsmen. For example, one day average 42, four day average 38 - salary = $40k.
The bowling is more complicated and works exponentially. The players are given a salary based on strike rate. These are different for one and four day stats because a good bowler in one day has strike rate of 30 whereas for four day it is 45. I will give full details later. the one day component is then multiplied by the overs per match and divided by 10. The four day component is multiplied by the overs per match and divided by 30, any with an over per match greater than 30 just gets 100% of nominated salary. 30 was chosen as an arbitrary number of overs most good bowlers bowl. Using 10 and 30 also means that part time bowlers only get a partial bowling salary.
Example:
One day SR=30, Salary $50k OPM=8, Adjusted salary $40k
Four day SR=45, Salary $50k OPM=15, Adjusted salary $25k
Overall bowling salary $32.5k
I am releasing this info now so that people have time to comment on the whole proposal. I will include more detail on the bowling salary rates in the near future.
age_master
Hall of Fame Member
i think once you have done the div 5 we should look at it more,
perhaps
div 1 - 375k (so if you are in div one for both you would get 750k)
div 2 - 350k
div 3 - 325k
div 4 - 300k
div 5 - 275k
perhaps
div 1 - 375k (so if you are in div one for both you would get 750k)
div 2 - 350k
div 3 - 325k
div 4 - 300k
div 5 - 275k
But if there was no bidding it would go against the purpose of teams having more money. Because if the salary caps is $600,000 and a team has $400,000 in player wages going into the draft then they would only need $200,000 to pay for the recruited players. Therefore any amount that the team has over $200,000 would be a waste. Also because teams will have excess money there would be no need to sell players to gain more money so i think that there should be bidding.The Argonaut said:
age_master
Hall of Fame Member
any money you dont spend is your loss
I think the teams in one division should get same amount of money.So all Division 1 teams get more money than division 2 teams and so on.So all the teams in one division will even out.And on the point that lower division teams will be far behind div 1.This can be sort out by the team which wins the division gets a prize money which it will take when it comes to higher division so that it can buy players and come at the same level of the divison which it is promoted to.
So there will be even contest in one division.Till a team is not in the same division there is no need to make it equal.
Here is a Eg
If SA and Guyana get same amount then as all the SA players will demand more money as their avgs are high the money with SA will become very less and Guyana on the other hand will have enough money to trade good players and SA on the other hand will pay all their players and then will be forced to stay out of trade as they have less money.
Now if Guyana wins its division it gets prize money and it will be promoted to div 4.So now it can buy players with that money and become equal to div 4 sides and then suppose it wins div 4 and gets promoted to div 3 again with the prize money it can even out to div 3 teams.
This makes the team even as and when it is getting promoted.By this there will be equal competition in a division.Like the ND side which is not good at all will be able to buy more players as the salary of their players will be less than that of other div 4 players so they will get to same strength as that of other div 4 sides.
So there will be even contest in one division.Till a team is not in the same division there is no need to make it equal.
Here is a Eg
If SA and Guyana get same amount then as all the SA players will demand more money as their avgs are high the money with SA will become very less and Guyana on the other hand will have enough money to trade good players and SA on the other hand will pay all their players and then will be forced to stay out of trade as they have less money.
Now if Guyana wins its division it gets prize money and it will be promoted to div 4.So now it can buy players with that money and become equal to div 4 sides and then suppose it wins div 4 and gets promoted to div 3 again with the prize money it can even out to div 3 teams.
This makes the team even as and when it is getting promoted.By this there will be equal competition in a division.Like the ND side which is not good at all will be able to buy more players as the salary of their players will be less than that of other div 4 players so they will get to same strength as that of other div 4 sides.
age_master
Hall of Fame Member
wait and have a look at an example of his formula before you judge it i think would be wise Marc
age_master
Hall of Fame Member
also aditya not all teams - in fact very few - are in the same division for 4d and OD, Colts are div 2 OD and div 4 4d
Neil Pickup
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Argonaut, my point with the Trescothick example was that the next season's salary ought to be calculated off the previous season's form as a proportion (?) of his career average rather than solely using the career average.
Aditya, I think that argument is flawed as 1) it does away with the VB Cup as being a contest that all 30 teams (OK, 29, ND
)have a decent chance of winning and 2) giving a team an increased budget/salary cap doesn't work to equalise their abilities - witness English football. The newly-promoted side will not have as strong a basic squad as the sides above it and while the extra money will help, it won't allow it to compete with sides who have been able to use the increased resources for previous season(s).
As for formulae driven salaries - I'm sure that we can work out a efficient solution with the amount of mathematical ability we have spread across the managers...
Give me a few days
Aditya, I think that argument is flawed as 1) it does away with the VB Cup as being a contest that all 30 teams (OK, 29, ND
)have a decent chance of winning and 2) giving a team an increased budget/salary cap doesn't work to equalise their abilities - witness English football. The newly-promoted side will not have as strong a basic squad as the sides above it and while the extra money will help, it won't allow it to compete with sides who have been able to use the increased resources for previous season(s).As for formulae driven salaries - I'm sure that we can work out a efficient solution with the amount of mathematical ability we have spread across the managers...
Give me a few days
age_master
Hall of Fame Member
with differing salary caps for different the team promoted would immediatley get the same recources from that division as the other teams, unlike english football where the higher teams have more recources, and another thing is that if you dont use your whole budget you lose it, there is no save money for the next season option in a salary cap
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