Test only batsmen

[tooextracool]

Cork was never a good enough batsman to be classed an all-rounder, and White was never good enough at either discipline.

you have got to be kidding me...craig white in his prime could do absolutely everything with the ball. i dont think he gets the kind of credit he deserves.. he bowled brilliantly in the ashes and even in the wc game against australia. it was a tactical error from hussain to not keep a few overs for him in the end.

just looking at his ODI bowling record

Wickets:65*
Average:26.55*
Best: 5/21*
Economy Rate: 4.38*
Strike Rate: 36.37

thats as good as you'll ever see!
btw cork wasnt good enough a bowler or batsman to be classified an allrounder!

 

[luckyeddie]

you have got to be kidding me...craig white in his prime could do absolutely everything with the ball. i dont think he gets the kind of credit he deserves.. he bowled brilliantly in the ashes and even in the wc game against australia. it was a tactical error from hussain to not keep a few overs for him in the end.

just looking at his ODI bowling record

Wickets:65*
Average:26.55*
Best: 5/21*
Economy Rate: 4.38*
Strike Rate: 36.37

thats as good as you'll ever see!
btw cork wasnt good enough a bowler or batsman to be classified an allrounder!

Cork in his sleep was a better test match bowler than Craig White ever was - and I'm surprised you don't realise that because the records, stats and text books say so.

 

[tooextracool]

Cork in his sleep was a better test match bowler than Craig White ever was - and I'm surprised you don't realise that because the records, stats and text books say so.

that was the sort of response id expect from massive zebra.....cork was a good bowler for about 1 year after which he lost his pace and became completely useless. the stats dont say much at all especially because cork played more than 80% of his games in england while craig white played a large proportion of his games away.
seriously LE was there anything that white couldnt do with the ball??he could cut it,seam it, he had serious pace in his prime,he was capable of reverse swing and he had a pretty decent yorker.

note- dont come up with he couldnt turn it!

 

[luckyeddie]

that was the sort of response id expect from massive zebra.....cork was a good bowler for about 1 year after which he lost his pace and became completely useless. the stats dont say much at all especially because cork played more than 80% of his games in england while craig white played a large proportion of his games away.
seriously LE was there anything that white couldnt do with the ball??he could cut it,seam it, he had serious pace in his prime,he was capable of reverse swing and he had a pretty decent yorker.

note- dont come up with he couldnt turn it!

No, the sort of response you would have got from a massive zebra would have been wrong, as opposed to being frightfully witty and right.

Cork was suited to English conditions because he was a conventional swing bowler - he never had any real pace to begin with. Where do you come up with a statement about his pace 'going'? Au contraire, my little Richard-like buddy, Cork's problems started when the England bowling coach at the time tried to ADD to his natural pace and make him into another Darren Gough. He eventually lost his only real weapon, the ability to swing the ball back into the right-hand batsman, and a swing bowler who gets close to the stumps who loses the in-swinger is dead meat.

White, on the other hand, spent the first 5 or 6 years of his international career as a journeyman plodder. Oh, don't get me wrong - he could surprise batsmen with his pace which came from a deceptively lazy action, and he learned how to reverse-swing a ball both ways. Just couldn't get people out - and a bowler who can't get people out is a liability.

 

[a massive zebra]

No, the sort of response you would have got from a massive zebra would have been wrong, as opposed to being frightfully witty and right.

Cork was suited to English conditions because he was a conventional swing bowler - he never had any real pace to begin with. Where do you come up with a statement about his pace 'going'? Au contraire, my little Richard-like buddy, Cork's problems started when the England bowling coach at the time tried to ADD to his natural pace and make him into another Darren Gough. He eventually lost his only real weapon, the ability to swing the ball back into the right-hand batsman, and a swing bowler who gets close to the stumps who loses the in-swinger is dead meat.

White, on the other hand, spent the first 5 or 6 years of his international career as a journeyman plodder. Oh, don't get me wrong - he could surprise batsmen with his pace which came from a deceptively lazy action, and he learned how to reverse-swing a ball both ways. Just couldn't get people out - and a bowler who can't get people out is a liability.

Thanks for slagging me off Eddie but I actually agree with you on this point.

 

[luckyeddie]

Thanks for slagging me off Eddie but I actually agree with you on this point.

I only slagged you off a bit - more a 'lady of questionable reputing' you off as opposed to full-on 'slagging'.

Should have put one of these in -

 

[marc71178]

Whites bowling is obviously better (dont you dare dispute this).

Why not? Flintoff's figures don't go half the way to telling what a good bowler he actually is.

As batting is concerned Flintoff is just a belter

Who has added the ability to defend and also the ability to choose when to attack...

 

[marc71178]

seriously LE was there anything that white couldnt do with the ball??

Erm, take wickets?

Erm, keep it tight?

 

[Craig]

Erm, take wickets?

Yes.

Well especially when Darren Lehmann come's into bat.

 

[Prince EWS]

Erm, take wickets?

Erm, keep it tight?

He said couldnt, not could easily.

I can admit that Flintoff has a lot more talent than White, but White is a smart player, and really has oerformed much better than Flintoff.

 

[marc71178]

Where do you get that from?

Tests:White 30, Flintoff 34

Batting:
White 1052 @ 24.46, Flintoff 1472 @ 28.30
White 1 ton & 5 fifties, Flintoff 3 & 7

Bowling:
White 59 @ 37.62, Flintoff 66 @ 41.95
Economy White 3.36, Flintoff 2.88

So his average is less with the ball, but not significantly less (10%) and not enough to outweigh all the other figures which are in Flintoff's favour!

 

[marc71178]

the stats dont say much at all especially because cork played more than 80% of his games in england while craig white played a large proportion of his games away.

Cork played may have played 27 at home and 10 away, but his away record was still 31.66 (still considerably better than that of White)

 

[Prince EWS]

Where do you get that from?

Tests:White 30, Flintoff 34

Batting:
White 1052 @ 24.46, Flintoff 1472 @ 28.30
White 1 ton & 5 fifties, Flintoff 3 & 7

Bowling:
White 59 @ 37.62, Flintoff 66 @ 41.95
Economy White 3.36, Flintoff 2.88

So his average is less with the ball, but not significantly less (10%) and not enough to outweigh all the other figures which are in Flintoff's favour!

Honetly, those figures make it look prettymuch dead even for me...

And Flintoof is in a purple patch, so his figures will drop.

The only reason why Flintoffs economy is so low is because he bowls to short and too wide, and batsman generally just decided to leave them.

You alos neglected to put int the bowling strike rates, which obviously would have had White in front.

Flintoff could be so much better than he is, and White could be so much worse.

I think White, as a bowler, was treated unfairly. He always got the old ball, and was the best bolwer in the recent Ashes series.

And you that Whites bowling average wasnt significantly better than Flintoffs, yet there is a bigger gap there than in the batting averages.

Bowling Economy and Batt SR mean nothing to me in test matches.

 

[luckyeddie]

Cork played may have played 27 at home and 10 away, but his away record was still 31.66 (still considerably better than that of White)

Wasting your breath, or fingers. I just had a look at Cork's bowling record (again - just in case I missed something the first 50 times) - and it stands up perfectly well in comparison to Darren Gough and Andrew Caddick - and blows Craig White's out of the water.

 

[luckyeddie]

I think White, as a bowler, was treated unfairly. He always got the old ball, and was the best bolwer in the recent Ashes series

The only thing that counts - see Harmison arguments passim

Oh - and White diidn't bowl with the new ball period. Hardly ever did for Yorkshire.

 

[marc71178]

And Flintoof is in a purple patch, so his figures will drop.

Why will they? What's to say they won't keep improving, they have been going that way for a long time now.

And you that Whites bowling average wasnt significantly better than Flintoffs, yet there is a bigger gap there than in the batting averages.

Bigger numerical, but not in real terms.

3.84 runs out of 24.46 is bigger than 4.33 out of 37.62.

 

[Prince EWS]

The only thing that counts - see Harmison arguments passim

Oh - and White diidn't bowl with the new ball period. Hardly ever did for Yorkshire.

Yes that was my point. He always got the old ball.

Not he always got the old ball during the ashes.

 

[Prince EWS]

Its just opinion that they will drop.

And I dont think its bigger as such.

There must be some concession made to the fact that the bowling averges are higer than the batting averages, but not as much as you are suggesting. I think it puts the two players pretty much equal.

And for the other reasons I have stated, White should be regarded higher.

Or even if you disregard all my other points (which would be rediculous) he is still around equal with Flintoff, which is more than other people give him credit for.

It seems wierd that everyone rates White fairly highly except English supporters....

And regarding Cork, he was a great bowler, and I rate him highly, but he wasnt an allrounder. He batting was..... well.....

 

[luckyeddie]

Yes that was my point. He always got the old ball.

Not he always got the old ball during the ashes.

And that's my point too.

White is/was a 'cutter' of the ball, he is also an exponent of reverse-swing.

He never bowled with the new ball for the same reason that someone like Harbhajan doesn't - the new ball doesn't suit his style of bowling.

I don't know if he was able to seam or swing a new ball, but if he could, surely he would have been given the cherry by his county? After all, he did captain Yorkshire, so was he treating himself unfairly?

Flintoff doesn't get the new ball either.

 

[Prince EWS]

Why will they? What's to say they won't keep improving, they have been going that way for a long time now.



Bigger numerical, but not in real terms.

3.84 runs out of 24.46 is bigger than 4.33 out of 37.62.

Its just opinion that they will drop.

And I dont think its bigger as such.

There must be some concession made to the fact that the bowling averges are higer than the batting averages, but not as much as you are suggesting. I think it puts the two players pretty much equal.

And for the other reasons I have stated, White should be regarded higher.

Or even if you disregard all my other points (which would be rediculous) he is still around equal with Flintoff, which is more than other people give him credit for.

It seems wierd that everyone rates White fairly highly except English supporters....

And regarding Cork, he was a great bowler, and I rate him highly, but he wasnt an allrounder. He batting was..... well.....