Sydney Barnes vs Anil Kumble

[Aritro]

Perhaps try make it more obvious. Anyone who has done a bit of research knows they aren't comparable in bowling styes, but you have complete idiots like the one above who think they are.

Lol, it was obvious. Like, really ****ing obvious.

 

[Nikhil99.99]

These conversations of old-school bowlers doing remarkable things with the ball that we don't often see today always fascinates me. I wonder if the balls they used were a reason behind this.

The pitch would be major factor which favoured the bowlers till the First World War.Especially some of the pitches till the turn of the century would have been some of the worst ever.
But S.F Barnes was special.Unquestionably one of the 2 greatest/best bowler till 1970 in over 90 years of international cricket alongside O’Reilly and arguably no.1 with Fred Trueman arguably at 3rd spot.Maybe the best bowler of all time.

Don Bradman on S.F Barnes

Barnes and O'Reilly were two greatest bowlers who ever lived. Each was undoubtedly the greatest of his time.

From all accounts, they were similar in style. Barnes was faster, but didn't have the googly. They were both aggressive and could deliver perhaps the hardest of all deliveries to keep out - the very quick leg-break.

O'Reilly was relentless and unforgiving if you managed to strike him to the boundary. Reports suggest that Barnes was in some ways similar in character.

He may have had more variety in his deliveries than O'Reilly. Barnes bowled fast off-breaks (besides the leg-breaks), out swingers and in swingers. Like O'Reilly he would have been a handful for the best batsman of any era.

 

[shortpitched713]

These conversations of old-school bowlers doing remarkable things with the ball that we don't often see today always fascinates me. I wonder if the balls they used were a reason behind this.

That's a really good shout actually. I think I read somewhere that the 2 piece ball was used before the 4 piece ball, but I can't remember when they would have made the change. And obviously these two types of cricket balls have wildly different behavior, and even quality.

 

[Migara]

That's a really good shout actually. I think I read somewhere that the 2 piece ball was used before the 4 piece ball, but I can't remember when they would have made the change. And obviously these two types of cricket balls have wildly different behavior, and even quality.

they do differ alright.

But as some idiots who claim to know fluid dynamics even better than Bornouli, or Rabindra Metha tell us it can swing and spin in the same delivery. Swing associated with backward spin and the direction ofspin is unrelated to the deviation (either of conventional, reverse and contrast swings can happen). Drift happens with forward and side spin and is always related to the direction of rotation of the ball. So even if you use a two piece ball, an orange, or a mammoth testicle it cannot swing and spin in the same delivery

 

[shortpitched713]

it cannot swing and spin in the same delivery

Who is claiming otherwise? I do know that the terminology, and physics knowledge of the old writers would lead to imprecision in the written account of such a delivery (it should be drift and cut), but I don't know that anyone has claimed that based on such terms we are to believe they actually swung and cut the ball on the same delivery?

 

[Starfighter]

Having bowled plenty of deliveries over the years that moved one way in the air and the other off the pitch, apparently I was breaking the laws of physics all this time. Who knew?

 

[the big bambino]

That’s because it cannot happen … except when it can.

 

[TheJediBrah]

So even if you use a mammoth testicle

Have you replicated this experiment enough times to obtain statistically significant results

Having bowled plenty of deliveries over the years that moved one way in the air and the other off the pitch, apparently I was breaking the laws of physics all this time. Who knew?

You know what Migs means though. Ball can move in the air and off the pitch different ways, but not with the specific definitions of "swing" and "spin" we usually work with. You can "drift" it one way and then it will spin the other, or you can swing it one way and it can "cut" the other. But you can't "swing" a ball (ie. needs a steady seam) and then spin it off the pitch.

 

[shortpitched713]

Having bowled plenty of deliveries over the years that moved one way in the air and the other off the pitch, apparently I was breaking the laws of physics all this time. Who knew?

When you swing it in the air one way, when it goes off the pitch the other way, it's generally seam movement, due to well... orientation of the seam.

When you drift a ball through rotation one way (regardless of whether you're a medium bowler doing a cutter or a slower spin bowler) the ball coming back the other way is conventional turn/cut from the ball rotation gripping on the pitch.

Neither of these cases are breaking the laws of physics. Now the two opposite cases (swing then cut OR drift then seam) are problematic. A swing ball is bowled with backspin, with the seam slightly angled one way, why the **** would it cut off the pitch when you're not imparting any horizontal spin, so it's pretty safe to assume the movement is off the seam, or a vagary of the pitch (Mcgrath used to do this all the time on the Lords slope with his outswinger going away from the righthander and coming back in from the slight hill grade, with the effect being that of looking like an extremely quick cutter).

The drifting ball seaming in, is similarly problematic, although less important, because the ball coming in off the pitch from the seam usually wouldn't even get as much movement as the turn you could get anyway, so is a less important example, but once again even if you hit the seam on a spin delivery, you're generally trying to get a more predictable and greater effect from the turn.

So for that reason, when we hear about a SWINGING ball cutting off the pitch, it sounds kind of a weird form of terminology, given that most of us will have seen a drifting ball cutting or a swinging ball seaming.

 

[ataraxia]

Can a finger-spinner who bowls with the seam consistent, swing it and spin it? i.e. similar to arm ball

 

[TheJediBrah]

Can a finger-spinner who bowls with the seam consistent, swing it and spin it? i.e. similar to arm ball

Maybe very rarely, but it's usually almost entirely one or the other. If the seam is upright and it "swings", it's almost certainly not going to spin.

Also an over-spinning ball, which is what a "finger-spinner who bowls with the seam consistent" is doing, is not likely to swing but it will get a lot of drift.

Starfighter would probably have more scientific insights

 

[cnerd123]

We've discussed this here before, but the terminology around swing/drift/curve and spin/seam/cut has only been clarified fairly recently. They have often been used interchangeably throughout history. Just because some writing says the ball swung one way and cut the other doesn't mean we interpret it literally based on modern day definitions of those terms.

Very possible to move the ball one way in the air and other off the pitch, happens all the time. Would be more exaggerated if using 2 piece balls and on poorer pitches.

 

[the big bambino]

We've discussed this here before, but the terminology around swing/drift/curve and spin/seam/cut has only been clarified fairly recently. They have often been used interchangeably throughout history. Just because some writing says the ball swung one way and cut the other doesn't mean we interpret it literally based on modern day definitions of those terms.

Very possible to move the ball one way in the air and other off the pitch, happens all the time. Would be more exaggerated if using 2 piece balls and on poorer pitches.

This shouldn't have to be explained but thank you for doing so.

 

[Migara]

Having bowled plenty of deliveries over the years that moved one way in the air and the other off the pitch, apparently I was breaking the laws of physics all this time. Who knew?

You are beasically ignorant on teh difference between spin and seam movement which can occur together with drift and spin which also can occur together. And it is a non shocker too.

 

[Migara]

That’s because it cannot happen … except when it can.

It cannot. May happen if you spin it million rpm, but homo sapiens fingers are not mechanically capable of imparting that much of revs on a ball.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

It cannot. May happen if you spin it million rpm, but homo sapiens fingers are not mechanically capable of imparting that much of revs on a ball.

I’m sure homo erectus can achieve this

 

[Migara]

Can a finger-spinner who bowls with the seam consistent, swing it and spin it? i.e. similar to arm ball

No. A seam up ball might curve and break away. That is contrast swing and seam movement off the pitch. Top spun delivery dips and goes straight on or might slightly break away especially if arm is very high, but then, it is not swing, but drift.

 

[Migara]

We've discussed this here before, but the terminology around swing/drift/curve and spin/seam/cut has only been clarified fairly recently. They have often been used interchangeably throughout history. Just because some writing says the ball swung one way and cut the other doesn't mean we interpret it literally based on modern day definitions of those terms.

Very possible to move the ball one way in the air and other off the pitch, happens all the time. Would be more exaggerated if using 2 piece balls and on poorer pitches.

However it is used literally to judge players without going in to details.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This shouldn't have to be explained but thank you for doing so.

Yeah I assumed this all went without saying

When Migara is saying "swing/seam/spin/drift" I think we all know what me means

 

[the big bambino]

It cannot.

... except when it does. But then get yourself in a pedantic tizz over the terms used to describe movement through the air.