Sydney Barnes vs Anil Kumble

[Migara]

... except when it does. But then get yourself in a pedantic tizz over the terms used to describe movement through the air.

It doesn't. You can yell at the top of your voice and convert your verbal splendour in to letters here, but still it doesn't.

Some things don't happen. I take side of physics.

 

[cnerd123]

However it is used literally to judge players without going in to details.

plenty of details all around. descriptions of grips and speeds. If you're going to get stuck up on the arbitrary terms used to describe how they got the ball to behave in a certain way you'll never wrap your head around it.

 

[Victor Ian]

Dunno about the older days but at least in the TV era since mid 90s, fast medium is 130-140 while medium fast is 120-130 in kph. And I guess just about anything below 120 and not spin is just "medium".

This is stupid. Surely, the first description qualifies the second. So fast medium must be the upper end of medium, while medium fast must be the middle of the fast spectrum. What I want to know is, who is the classic slow fast bowler?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I take side of physics.

Like how you can't bowl a doosra without chucking

 

[the big bambino]

It doesn't. You can yell at the top of your voice and convert your verbal splendour in to letters here, but still it doesn't.

Some things don't happen. I take side of physics.

You don't. You're just trying to be a show off. You are applying a specific definition for cricket's general term describing movement in the air (swing) to argue it can't happen in concert with movement off the pitch ... except when it can (drift). I'm not yelling at all. Just shaking my head.

 

[Migara]

Like how you can't bowl a doosra without chucking

Already proven it can be done.

 

[Starfighter]

Maybe very rarely, but it's usually almost entirely one or the other. If the seam is upright and it "swings", it's almost certainly not going to spin.

Also an over-spinning ball, which is what a "finger-spinner who bowls with the seam consistent" is doing, is not likely to swing but it will get a lot of drift.

Starfighter would probably have more scientific insights

Lol I'd like to have more scientific insights but frankly I can't be arsed arguing with Cricketweb's Walter Mitty. Pretty sure I've been over this before.

@cnerd123 is right the distinction between swing and drift is more modern. This means we can't be sure by which mechanism the ball moved in the air. The same goes with movement off the pitch. 'Spin' vs 'cut' is more of a methodological distinction (Spofforth defined it as, spin you twist your fingers and or wrist, cut you just push down one side of the ball). They both put spin on the ball, along some axis. Wisden happily praises Ted McDonald, who we have footage to at least show he was *not slow*, for the amount of spin he put on the ball.

We will never know exactly what orientation Barnes released the ball in, and so how he moved the ball in the air. But when his contemporaries say he did what he did, noting how unusual it was, it's a fair bet the movement existed, regardless of how it happened.

And no, overspinning the ball won't get a lot of drift. I had a very lengthy post typed up that I completed on drift, it's saved somewhere on my computer. But most people don't know it's the spinning-top like competent of the spin that gets the drift, not the sidespin or overspin.

And I've played with someone who could consistently swing and spin the ball. He only bowled about 100 km/h and with the seam upright but oriented about 40°. Not the most favourable angle, but the ball did still swing a bit and if the pitch was at all soft or worn the ball would rip away from the left handers, he was very good at getting them out as they played towards the leg side with the swing.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And no, overspinning the ball won't get a lot of drift. I had a very lengthy post typed up that I completed on drift, it's saved somewhere on my computer. But most people don't know it's the spinning-top like competent of the spin that gets the drift, not the sidespin or overspin.

Yes you're right that was poorly worded from me. An over-spinning ball will drop, rather than drift, it's the side spin that will get the drift. I guess what I was trying to say is that when a spinner that bowls with a lot of over-spin moves the ball sideways in the air, it's "drift" rather than "swing", at least by our modern definitions of the terms.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Of course, if you go back far enough, I've found writers in the fifties or thereabouts (well, Bradman, anyway) would use 'swerve' where we would now say 'drift'.

 

[Migara]

And I've played with someone who could consistently swing and spin the ball. He only bowled about 100 km/h and with the seam upright but oriented about 40°. Not the most favourable angle, but the ball did still swing a bit and if the pitch was at all soft or worn the ball would rip away from the left handers, he was very good at getting them out as they played towards the leg side with the swing.

Sound very Grant Bradburnish. Spun the ball back wards rather than forwards at an angle close to 75 degrees. The "spin" Bradburn got was infact movement off the seam.

 

[Starfighter]

Sound very Grant Bradburnish. Spun the ball back wards rather than forwards at an angle close to 75 degrees. The "spin" Bradburn got was infact movement off the seam.

Nope, this is definitely spin. The ball can still turn when it spins backwards. Seen lots of folks in amateur cricket (especially women's) do it.

Probably was in Bradburn's case too

 

[Coronis]

Unsurprised that this has turned into easily the best thread in CC this year. Predictable just from the title tbh.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

What's next? Bradman vs Chanderpaul?

 

[shortpitched713]

What's next? Bradman vs Chanderpaul?

Unfair, as obviously Chanderpaul takes it with much better technique. Bradman could never match that.

 

[TheJediBrah]

What's next? Bradman vs Chanderpaul?

Which one was the better part-time legspinner

 

[shortpitched713]

Which one was the better part-time legspinner

Tendulkar the GOAT part time leg-spinner for mine.

 

[Prince EWS]

Tendulkar the GOAT part time leg-spinner for mine.

Both chuckers. Ronnie Sarwan all the way.