Stuart MacGill announces his retirement

[Burgey]

i thought if India played against Clark like one-dayers they would have won series. He is a one line bowler and he will get you out if you just leave, his one day career isnt good, because batsman move around and play shots, If i were India coach, i would show clark in one dayers and tell all batters to move around and have a go.

I see your point, but the very nature of the game means it's very difficult to do that. Try the glide to 3rd man - oops, there are three slips in place; try to whip the ball across the line - no fielding restrictions means he can post two short mid wickets, a square leg and someone deep; oh and if yo miss and are lbw, it's a bigger deal than if there's only 30 overs left to bat in an ODI.
Also, if the wickets are as flat as seems to be the case, you'd back yourself to get in and grind out a big score, rather than make a bright 40 odd against him.
If there's anything in the wickets there by way of sideways movement or variable bounce, I will back him to get more out of it than any other Aussie bowler.

 

[Blue_Faithful]

Basically, if every Test side took that attitude, they'd score 250 in a hurry which isn't enough to win a Test. Besides, it's much easier to accomplish that with fielding restrictions. Clark hasn't done brilliantly in ODI's for a few reasons, only one of which is his predictable line.

not all bowlers, just clark, Why do you think Mcgrath was such a good bowler? How many times did indian batman get caught behind to clark over summer?
He isnt a distructive bowler, he doesnt do that much with it. Players seem to think ill leave him and then he will bowl to me (but he doesnt) then they get frustrated and play a shot that isnt on and their gone.

When he hasnt bowled well players actually took him on ie: Pietersen, Laxman, Tendulkar. All scored runs over here.

 

[Burgey]

not all bowlers, just clark, Why do you think Mcgrath was such a good bowler? How many times did indian batman get caught behind to clark over summer?
He isnt a distructive bowler, he doesnt do that much with it. Players seem to think ill leave him and then he will bowl to me (but he doesnt) then they get frustrated and play a shot that isnt on and their gone.

When he hasnt bowled well players actually took him on ie: Pietersen, Laxman, Tendulkar. All scored runs over here.

There's more to it than that though, just as there was with McGrath.
Edit: I should also say he was Australia's best bowler last Ashes series here. I wouldn't say Pietersen dominated him in any sense of the word, save Adelaide which was the world's flattest deck.

 

[Blue_Faithful]

I see your point, but the very nature of the game means it's very difficult to do that. Try the glide to 3rd man - oops, there are three slips in place; try to whip the ball across the line - no fielding restrictions means he can post two short mid wickets, a square leg and someone deep; oh and if yo miss and are lbw, it's a bigger deal than if there's only 30 overs left to bat in an ODI.
Also, if the wickets are as flat as seems to be the case, you'd back yourself to get in and grind out a big score, rather than make a bright 40 odd against him.
If there's anything in the wickets there by way of sideways movement or variable bounce, I will back him to get more out of it than any other Aussie bowler.

2005 Ashes test 1 day 2 Pietersen, one move forward and smash mcgrath back for 6, what did that do? It was huge play in the series, and showed that McGrath isnt a god that cant be hit for runs.
Clark is a NSWelsman so of course i like him , but i dont see him as a great bowler. He could be found out quickly if players didnt leave him all the time.

 

[Blue_Faithful]

There's more to it than that though, just as there was with McGrath.

pressure is what mcgrath built his game on, a consistant line outside off stump, frustrate batsman and they play a dumb shot, clark is exactly the same.
Clark first test, bogged down De Villiers and Smith and got them out with average balls.
Who dominated Mcgrath over the years? Lara and Tendulkar...what did they do? They didnt let him bowl 1 line, they moved around, played shots and got him frustrated, they didnt get 40's they got big hundreds against him and rest of bowlers.

 

[Spinksy]

2005 Ashes test 1 day 2 Pietersen, one move forward and smash mcgrath back for 6, what did that do? It was huge play in the series, and showed that McGrath isnt a god that cant be hit for runs.
Clark is a NSWelsman so of course i like him , but i dont see him as a great bowler. He could be found out quickly if players didnt leave him all the time.

You must be joking!

 

[Blue_Faithful]

You must be joking!

he is a good/average bowler, his test stats flatter him at the moment, his stats for nsw show what i mean.

 

[Burgey]

No one dominated McGrath over the years. No one.

Some scored runs against him from time to time, but no one dominated him over the full course of his career. He got the two guys you mention out a lot of times, great players that they were, just as they took runs from him a fair few times as well.

 

[DaRick]

pressure is what mcgrath built his game on, a consistant line outside off stump, frustrate batsman and they play a dumb shot, clark is exactly the same.
Clark first test, bogged down De Villiers and Smith and got them out with average balls.
Who dominated Mcgrath over the years? Lara and Tendulkar...what did they do? They didnt let him bowl 1 line, they moved around, played shots and got him frustrated, they didnt get 40's they got big hundreds against him and rest of bowlers.

The problem with your argument is that it ignores the fact that both Brian Lara and Sachin Tendulkar were consistently elite batsman - both (and Ricky Ponting, too) have that magic touch which allows them to turn challenging or near-impossible situations into cakewalks or euphoric victories (Tendulkar in Chennai 1998, Lara in Barbados 1999).

Another salient point is that McGrath dismissed Lara and Tendulkar a multitude of times. I wouldn't exactly say that either truly dominated him (save for brief occasions). If you want a picture of McGrath beating Lara, consult the 2000/01 series in Australia - specifically, the first two Test matches.

 

[Burgey]

2005 Ashes test 1 day 2 Pietersen, one move forward and smash mcgrath back for 6, what did that do? It was huge play in the series, and showed that McGrath isnt a god that cant be hit for runs.
Clark is a NSWelsman so of course i like him , but i dont see him as a great bowler. He could be found out quickly if players didnt leave him all the time.

Umm, Australia won that test and McGrath took a hat full. You think he'd never been hit for six before?

McGrath's lack of effectiveness for the balance of that series had a lot less to do with Pitersen hitting him for a six than it did with him stepping on a stray cricket ball on the morning of the second test.

 

[sanga1337]

Johnson is younger.....that is all.......brackens first class career is better, and has played test cricket, but johnson they see as the young star of the future.

He's 30 years old... Thats not that old. He could bowl for another 5 years at least. I know that johnson is australia's new young gun but at least put bracken in the test squad. He definitely deserves to be there IMO

 

[miekk]

Can there be any Stuart MacGill topics without references to wine and books?

 

[Blue_Faithful]

Umm, Australia won that test and McGrath took a hat full. You think he'd never been hit for six before?

McGrath's lack of effectiveness for the balance of that series had a lot less to do with Pitersen hitting him for a six than it did with him stepping on a stray cricket ball on the morning of the second test.

Did i mention the result of that test? Who won the series. How many runs did warne go for in series? England hit truck loads of sixes.cant you see where I'm getting at?
400 in 78 overs, they scored quickly and troubled the aussie bowlers.

Then what happened when they came to aus last summer? What did Indian openers do in first 2 tests............. scored slow, let aussie bowlers take control from first over. What does hayden do? He advances down wicket, doesnt smash ball every time, but it concerns the bowler.their next delivery is usually a bounces which he rocks back and hits.

Mcgrath bowled the same ball during the whole match, watch it again, its a average mcgrath delivery. Pietersen makes the shot.

We wont agree, but long story short if batsman actually play against Clark he will be gone from team.

 

[Blue_Faithful]

He's 30 years old... Thats not that old. He could bowl for another 5 years at least. I know that johnson is australia's new young gun but at least put bracken in the test squad. He definitely deserves to be there IMO

look at rest of age of team hayden is still there at 37, its crazy, he wont give a 22 yr old a go, so we went for a mid 20 year old.

 

[DaRick]

Did i mention the result of that test? Who won the series. How many runs did warne go for in series? England hit truck loads of sixes.cant you see where I'm getting at?
400 in 78 overs, they scored quickly and troubled the aussie bowlers.

That was a different Test match. Besides, I thought that you were critiquing McGrath, not Shane Warne (BTW, Shane Warne took 40 wickets at under 20 - the amount of runs he goes for is practically irrelevant with stats like that). Also, England scored that quickly because all three of our pacemen served up tripe (Lee, Gillespie, Kaspr). It hasn't happened very often before or since.

If scoring quickly and 'troubling the Aussie bowlers' is all that you need to do to beat Australia, then why aren't we hailing someone like Shahid Afridi as beng one of the world's great batsmen? Things like technique, the quality of the bowling and the match situation are important as well.

Then what happened when they came to aus last summer? What did Indian openers do in first 2 tests............. scored slow, let aussie bowlers take control from first over. What does hayden do? He advances down wicket, doesnt smash ball every time, but it concerns the bowler.their next delivery is usually a bounces which he rocks back and hits.

The circumstances of the 2006/07 Ashes, the 2005 Ashes and the India tour of 2007/08 were completely different. For instance, our bowling was far, far better during the 2006/07 Ashes than the 2005 Ashes. Hell, our bowling during 2007/08 was also quite a lot better.

Mcgrath bowled the same ball during the whole match, watch it again, its a average mcgrath delivery. Pietersen makes the shot.

Show us some footage. Besides, your argument is among the more simplistic that I've encountered on here. McGrath didn't (and never has) bowled the same ball during the entirety of matches. It's physically impossible to do, anyway. If you want proof of this, I suggest that you go to YouTube and type in 'Glenn McGrath hatrick'. They're three different deliveries.

We wont agree, but long story short if batsman actually play against Clark he will be gone from team.

Again, you're churning out a very, very simplistic argument. You're assuming that Stuart Clark isn't intelligent enough to realise when batsmen are trying to play their shots against him. Trust me, he would be. He's studying for a Commerce degree, FFS.

Clark, as well as landing it on a length, can swing and seam the ball both ways. That's pretty damn hard to play shots against persistently and get away with it. He also has a pretty good yorker, too.

 

[pasag]

He's studying for a Commerce degree, FFS.

I can safely say that this doesn't prove anything

Good post fwiw.

 

[Blue_Faithful]

That was a different Test match. Besides, I thought that you were critiquing McGrath, not Shane Warne (BTW, Shane Warne took 40 wickets at under 20 - the amount of runs he goes for is practically irrelevant with stats like that). Also, England scored that quickly because all three of our pacemen served up tripe (Lee, Gillespie, Kaspr). It hasn't happened very often before or since.

If scoring quickly and 'troubling the Aussie bowlers' is all that you need to do to beat Australia, then why aren't we hailing someone like Shahid Afridi as beng one of the world's great batsmen? Things like technique, the quality of the bowling and the match situation are important as well.



The circumstances of the 2006/07 Ashes, the 2005 Ashes and the India tour of 2007/08 were completely different. For instance, our bowling was far, far better during the 2006/07 Ashes than the 2005 Ashes. Hell, our bowling during 2007/08 was also quite a lot better.



Show us some footage. Besides, your argument is among the more simplistic that I've encountered on here. McGrath didn't (and never has) bowled the same ball during the entirety of matches. It's physically impossible to do, anyway. If you want proof of this, I suggest that you go to YouTube and type in 'Glenn McGrath hatrick'. They're three different deliveries.



Again, you're churning out a very, very simplistic argument. You're assuming that Stuart Clark isn't intelligent enough to realise when batsmen are trying to play their shots against him. Trust me, he would be. He's studying for a Commerce degree, FFS.

Clark, as well as landing it on a length, can swing and seam the ball both ways. That's pretty damn hard to play shots against persistently and get away with it. He also has a pretty good yorker, too.

I dont know where to start?
Really I am gob smacked at that, how about you look at Clark in one day cricket,
Commerce degree wow, thats just the stupidest thing ive ever read.
Mcgrath hat trick, 3 different batsman, i was talking about same link to same player,

Anywho, I heading off, ill reply tomorrow to this again, I am just in shock and also ashamed a fellow aussie has just posted what you posted ciao

 

[Richard]

Again, you're churning out a very, very simplistic argument.

Excellent post in general, but I think that sums-up exactly what I've been thinking throughout the last 20-odd posts this thread.

 

[DaRick]

I dont know where to start?

Really? How about responding to my argument directly - quote by quote?

Really I am gob smacked at that, how about you look at Clark in one day cricket

Stuart Clark's economy rate is poor in one-day cricket partially because he lacks a slower ball. Besides, his economy rate has recently improved, anyway. Tests and ODI's should also not be compared, at least in terms of batting and bowling strategies.

Commerce degree wow, thats just the stupidest thing ive ever read.

Why? It's true, that I know. Not that many Australian cricketers actually have degrees.

Mcgrath hat trick, 3 different batsman, i was talking about same link to same player

This comment makes no sense whatsoever. You said that "Mcgrath bowled the same ball during the whole match" and I pointed out the fallacies in that comment. To hammer home my point, I offered up footage of Glenn McGrath's hat trick.

Anywho, I heading off, ill reply tomorrow to this again, I am just in shock and also ashamed a fellow aussie has just posted what you posted ciao

This is a rather melodramatic reaction. Besides, it's not my fault that your argument is as primitive as a typical Stooges song.

FWIW, welcome to the forum.

 

[Blue_Faithful]

Really? How about responding to my argument directly - quote by quote?



Stuart Clark's economy rate is poor in one-day cricket partially because he lacks a slower ball. Besides, his economy rate has recently improved, anyway. Tests and ODI's should also not be compared, at least in terms of batting and bowling strategies.



Why? It's true, that I know. Not that many Australian cricketers actually have degrees.



This comment makes no sense whatsoever. You said that "Mcgrath bowled the same ball during the whole match" and I pointed out the fallacies in that comment. To hammer home my point, I offered up footage of Glenn McGrath's hat trick.



This is a rather melodramatic reaction. Besides, it's not my fault that your argument is as primitive as a typical Stooges song.

FWIW, welcome to the forum.

quote by quote?
takes too long, I guess i was out knowledged by you,

most of what you said was correct, my knowledge of cricket is not as good as i thought

I dont know where to put clark tbh, because i stand by what i said, i dont think anyone has actually taken him up.
Where people did to mcgrath and warne and yes they still got their man

This is a rather melodramatic reaction. Besides, it's not my fault that your argument is as primitive as a typical Stooges song.

FWIW, welcome to the forum

touche on the ending note

in the day, i used to have very good typing skills to put my point out, but that goes to another forum now..........
cheers i look forward to arguing with you again