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Steve Waugh - the overrated test captain

Slow Love™

International Captain
howardj said:
Hell yeah. He sure knew how to lose in spectacular fashion! They weren't just quiet, respectable, ordinary losses. They were spectacular!
Haha... The one against NZ in Brisbane in '01 would have been pretty spectacular too, if there'd been time for another over or two. Of course in that case, you would have had to lay the blame completely at Waugh's feet.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Salamuddin said:
Home v india 2003-3004
In that series at least he had shocking luck with injuries to his bowling attack.

Against such a strong batting line up as India, it was always going to spell problems.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
marc71178 said:
In that series at least he had shocking luck with injuries to his bowling attack.

Against such a strong batting line up as India, it was always going to spell problems.
Yeah, I mean I am real proud that we drew there. But considering our batting line up, we really should have won. Australia were hurting bad, it was a great opportunity for us. Waugh did a great job IMO, to keep it drawn.

I mean, without McGrath and Warne...Australia are merely very good, not great.

In 2001 was our real triumph. That was the Australian team on top of its game, had won 16 games in a row, had all its weapons, and Ganguly and co. managed to win that on back of Harbhajan and VVS Laxman.
 
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deeps

International 12th Man
LongHopCassidy said:
Which were, incidentally, three of the four series that he didn't win as captain.
incidentally, one of the first series he captained too iirc
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
archie mac said:
WI 99-This was his first series as captain, he decided from that moment that he would follow his gut instict. He also ran into a great batsman in great form who won two Tests off his own bat. Tell me what great inspired tactic would have won that series?

India 2001- after who knows how many Test wins he may well be forgiven for following a tried and true method, again one of the great Test innings defeated his team. Buchannan was coach where was his plan B?

NZ 2001- I am surprised this is even on this list, Aust should and would have won this series 2-0 except for the weather. Congratulations to NZ for some good tactics but lets face it Aust flogged them all over the park in the first Two Tests.

India 2003-04- maybe the flattest pitches I have ever watched cricket on in this country, he was also without his two best bowlers.

In short you find four series only one of which he lost, big deal. I agree he didnot seem to have a plan B, but I thought he took cricket to a new level and played every Test to win. Something you could not say for AB.
100% agree here AM. Steve was a very good captain maybe not the greatest tactican like Imran Khan, Lloyd, Border etc, but as another poster said he turned a very good team into a All-time great one.
 

deeps

International 12th Man
I think Waugh is a great captain. One of the best ever. The common argument, is that either
a) He had a great team, or
b) He had no plan B.

He can't help that he had a great team. However it wasn't just 'given' to him. Were Australia as great under Taylor? I mean, Taylor gave captaincy to Waugh, if the team was that great, it would mean the results would have been similar throughout right? The team that Taylor gave to Waugh was a good team. No doubt about it. They were expected to win more than they lost, and were one of the best teams in the world. However, within a few months of Waugh taking over, the team took another step forward. They went from merely good, to excellent, and then again, to legendary. There was changes from the team that Taylor handed over, and the changes were directly influenced by Waugh. Waugh was the one that insisted Langer be brought in, Brett Lee was also pulled into the Australian side under Waugh's insistence.

He made a merely good team, into the incredible team they became.


Secondly, the no plan B. As has been mentioned above, they never just lay down and lost a game. If Australia were to lose a test, it would be in spectacular fashion. Be it a Brian Lara special, or a VVS Laxman and Rahul Dravid tag team, it was always spectacular. It would take an amazing, superhuman effort from one or two of the opposition players, to be able to defeat Waugh's team. There was never an easy win.

When Brian Lara is on song, there is nothing any captain in the world can do to stop him. So Plan B, Plan C, Plan D would not have helped. Two tests he won of his own bat, did Brian Lara. Waugh could do nothing but watch on.

VVS Laxman's century was rated the best test innings of all time. So it took the best test innings of all time to defeat Waugh's Australians.


It was always just so near impossibleto beat his side, and that is a hallmark that was only carried when Waugh was captain. When Taylor was captain, it was merely hard to beat the Australian test side. Now, Ponting is captain, and again, it's merely hard to beat the Australian test side. However, when Waugh was captain, it was near impossible.

It's not all about field placings, inspired bowling changes or batting order shuffles. Captaincy is a lot more than that, and what Waugh lacked in some places, he more than made up for in others.


You can critisize him and say at times he was too attacking, and didn't know when to take a step back. Let's face it, no plan is bulletproof, and neither is Waugh's. However his plan was more successful than any other captain in the history of cricket. So for the few times it did not work, he is forgiven.

Even without his super star bowlers in Mcgrath and Warne, the Australian unit was damn hard to beat. That really says something about the great man.



And let's remember:

A champion team will always beat a team of champions.

Waugh made a team of champions, into a champion team.

If you have a look at the Pakistani side for the past few years, it's brilliant. There's a LOT of talent there, some superstar players. Yet they are so inconsistent. They need a guiding force, to convert the team of champions, into a champion team. There's other examples peppered throughout history. It's not as simple as saying 'anyone could captain that side to a victory'
 

JF.

School Boy/Girl Captain
Ummm... before debating the issue, wouldn't it make sense to decide upon the criteria by which you judge a captain's ability?

I've had this debate with many people at another forum. They all think Ponting is a brilliant captain because of his win / loss record. I personally think Punter is an average captain with very good team. I rate Fleming as better. He of course doesn't have the same record - but then, geez, look at some of the crap he has had to work with!!

And to the person who criticised Fleming's captaincy on his test record while saying that they do OK in the ODI arena.. duh..they are two completely different games and NZ DO have a better ODI side than a test one...
 

archie mac

International Coach
JF. said:
Ummm... before debating the issue, wouldn't it make sense to decide upon the criteria by which you judge a captain's ability?

I've had this debate with many people at another forum. They all think Ponting is a brilliant captain because of his win / loss record. I personally think Punter is an average captain with very good team. I rate Fleming as better. He of course doesn't have the same record - but then, geez, look at some of the crap he has had to work with!!

And to the person who criticised Fleming's captaincy on his test record while saying that they do OK in the ODI arena.. duh..they are two completely different games and NZ DO have a better ODI side than a test one...
Judging captains is very subjective, there is so much off field things we do not see. Almost every player who played under Chappelli rates him the greatest of captains (except Skull and maybe Yallop) but his record is not the greatest (although still pretty good).

On NZs last tour of Aust. I thought Fleming ran out of ideas while leading a side well below par.

To find out the best captain would be like trying to find the best F1 driver; only if they raced in the same car would you really know the answer.
 

Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
marc71178 said:
In that series at least he had shocking luck with injuries to his bowling attack.

Against such a strong batting line up as India, it was always going to spell problems.
True, and in hindsight its fairly easy to say that, but No one thought it'd be a drawn series though. Many didn't even believe India would win a test, as there were still plenty of 4-0 predictions even from generally balanced posters simply because of India's appalling record in Aus, and everyone knew McGrath (and Gillespie for the first test, and then the third) wouldn't be available. Lee and Warne were missing for large chunks (and in Warne's case the whole tour) as well, but they weren't important as McGrath and Gillespie. I dont' blame Steve Waugh for that drawn series, but I think he could have done one or two things differently, particularly in Sydney. He let the games slide a little in Sydney, when I think he should have been a bit more pro-active.
 
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Jono

Virat Kohli (c)
Salamuddin said:
In the captaincy thread, we had Steve Waugh v Ganguly and people telling us how Waugh was just this unbelievably good captain ( a captaincy great was how Marc the Warwickshire Zealot put it).
Not sure why you singled out Marc, but I don't believe he overrates Steve Waugh's captaincy.

http://forum.cricketweb.net/showpost.php?p=175758&postcount=84
marc71178 said:
No, Steve Waugh captained an outstanding side.

He's by no means best captain of his generation.
 

Johnners

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
tooextracool said:
Steve Waugh was a great leader of men, but as a captain in terms of decision making he was absolutely appalling.
Of that there is no doubt!!!

But please provide more than 1 example of the latter?? You honestly do not win the percentage of test matches he did as captain, if you decision making is "absolutely appalling".
 

Alysum

U19 Debutant
Salamuddin said:
It's what you do when things are not going well that counts and Waugh loses big time on that count......

He lost/drew series he should have won comfortably and I think his unimaginative captaincy deserves some blame for that.

The series I'm talking about
Wi 1999
India 2001
Home v NZl 2001
Home v india 2003-3004
Dude you need to think about the situation in those series:

WI: his first series as captain, give him time to adjust, plus they still had their super bowlers the WI

India 2001, India were very good, mostly due to Harbhajan

Home NZ 2001: it rained

Home India 2003-2004: tendulkar magic :p
 

Slow Love™

International Captain
Jono said:
I dont' blame Steve Waugh for that drawn series, but I think he could have done one or two things differently, particularly in Sydney. He let the games slide a little in Sydney, when I think he should have been a bit more pro-active.
It's hard to argue with "he could have done one or two things differently", but my memory of that game was that we were fighting for our lives, and would have most definitely lost the game had it not been for a gaff by Gangs in not enforcing the follow-on, and some determined batting near the end from Waugh himself and Katich.

If you mean they should have pushed the scoring rate faster in their last innings, that's a pretty harsh call. And in the field, India had the only really threatening bowler in the match.
 

Sanz

Hall of Fame Member
Steve Waugh was a great leader of men, he was a great clutch performer himself and led by example. My only problem with him is that stupid thing called Mental disintegration where let his players loose on many occasions. He could have done it without it and still have won as many games.
 

archie mac

International Coach
Sanz said:
Steve Waugh was a great leader of men, he was a great clutch performer himself and led by example. My only problem with him is that stupid thing called Mental disintegration where let his players loose on many occasions. He could have done it without it and still have won as many games.
I agree Sanz, although he did try and make amends towards the end of his career re- MD.

Just on the Test in Sydney V India that track was flat, and I remember Blee claiming a wicket with at least one no-ball, so things may have been different. I thought India played for a draw on winning the toss. Tendulkar for one refused to play any off side shots.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
archie mac said:
I agree Sanz, although he did try and make amends towards the end of his career re- MD.

Just on the Test in Sydney V India that track was flat, and I remember Blee claiming a wicket with at least one no-ball, so things may have been different. I thought India played for a draw on winning the toss. Tendulkar for one refused to play any off side shots.
Agreed. I recall that instance of the wicket off the no ball as well. It came the ball after Katich dropped a sitter in the gully, much to my and the rest of the crowd's chagrin.

Australia played no where near their best in that series, which they needed to do if they were going to win. That Indian side was really a very good one. I recall Buchanan chastising the team about being distracted about Waugh's farewell in that series and also in comparing different styles of helmet (somewhat bizarrely).

In any event, India's win in Adelaide was a great victory. Dravid's batting in the series was a particular highlight.
 

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