Steve Waugh - the overrated test captain

[Johnners]

Agreed. I recall that instance of the wicket off the no ball as well. It came the ball after Katich dropped a sitter in the gully, much to my and the rest of the crowd's chagrin.

Australia played no where near their best in that series, which they needed to do if they were going to win. That Indian side was really a very good one. I recall Buchanan chastising the team about being distracted about Waugh's farewell in that series and also in comparing different styles of helmet (somewhat bizarrely).

In any event, India's win in Adelaide was a great victory. Dravid's batting in the series was a particular highlight.

Not to forget one RT Pontings batting either

I recall that particular spell from Lee, it left me whimpering, as it wasn't the only time in the series that he'd had a batsmen caught from a no-ball.

 

[vic_orthdox]

On NZs last tour of Aust. I thought Fleming ran out of ideas while leading a side well below par.

Further reinforcing your point, I just thought that NZ's bowlers didn't allow Fleming to properly execute any plans that the team may have been trying to implement.

 

[vic_orthdox]

I agree Sanz, although he did try and make amends towards the end of his career re- MD.

Just on the Test in Sydney V India that track was flat, and I remember Blee claiming a wicket with at least one no-ball, so things may have been different. I thought India played for a draw on winning the toss. Tendulkar for one refused to play any off side shots.

In a way, that's what made the innings though. Tendulkar had been having a bit of a 'mare, and kept going out driving. So he put the off-drive away for the whole innings.

 

[Slow Love™]

In a way, that's what made the innings though. Tendulkar had been having a bit of a 'mare, and kept going out driving. So he put the off-drive away for the whole innings.

Lara made a similar decision in '99 vs AUS, virtually every time he faced McGrath. Takes enormous discipline, an underrated aspect of his genius that tour.

 

[archie mac]

In a way, that's what made the innings though. Tendulkar had been having a bit of a 'mare, and kept going out driving. So he put the off-drive away for the whole innings.

No doubt, and it worked, but I thought he really made it hard for India to win. Also his partner VVS scored very slowly. I think they were both under 60/100 balls faced (I could be wrong).

I wonder if this was a team thing? Not so sure if it was though as the captain came out playing his shots later in the innings.

 

[Jono]

It's hard to argue with "he could have done one or two things differently", but my memory of that game was that we were fighting for our lives, and would have most definitely lost the game had it not been for a gaff by Gangs in not enforcing the follow-on, and some determined batting near the end from Waugh himself and Katich.

If you mean they should have pushed the scoring rate faster in their last innings, that's a pretty harsh call. And in the field, India had the only really threatening bowler in the match.

Got nothing to do with Australian batting. They should have attacked Tendulkar more in the first innings.

Tendulkar refused to play a shot outside off because he was out of form, yet they kept bowling outside off to him allowing him to leave, and then they'd just bowl to him on the stumps and he'd pick them off because his eye was in. The field placings to Tendulkar were also poor IMO.

They should have gone for the kill immediately when he walked out there. They knew he was under extreme pressure. Instead they let him get his eye in, have time at the crease, and that was all she wrote for Australia's chances of winning back the Border-Gavaskar Trophy,

 

[Pratters]

Great captaincy isn't just about field placements and bowling changes. Waugh was a true leader of men.

It is a key ingredient.

 

[Jono]

No doubt, and it worked, but I thought he really made it hard for India to win. Also his partner VVS scored very slowly. I think they were both under 60/100 balls faced (I could be wrong).

I wonder if this was a team thing? Not so sure if it was though as the captain came out playing his shots later in the innings.

Patel scored his 50 off like 40 balls or something. They wanted to win that match, Ganguly would have been a God had India won a test series in Australia.

 

[Matt79]

Got nothing to do with Australian batting. They should have attacked Tendulkar more in the first innings.

Tendulkar refused to play a shot outside off because he was out of form, yet they kept bowling outside off to him allowing him to leave, and then they'd just bowl to him on the stumps and he'd pick them off because his eye was in. The field placings to Tendulkar were also poor IMO.

They should have gone for the kill immediately when he walked out there. They knew he was under extreme pressure. Instead they let him get his eye in, have time at the crease, and that was all she wrote for Australia's chances of winning back the Border-Gavaskar Trophy,

So is it Waugh or McGrath and co who are overrated when something like that happens?

 

[Jono]

1) I've never claimed Waugh was overrated as captain, I was just responding to a question.
2) McGrath didn't play in Sydney, which is why Waugh should have tried something different. McGrath didn't play the whole series, which put Waugh under pressure from the get-go.

Aren't I allowed to criticise one aspect of Waugh's captaincy in one game?

 

[Matt79]

Sorry, should have:
a) checked my facts, and
b) added a smiley.

Of course you can criticise what you like.

 

[Poker Boy]

I think Steve Waugh was a great captain because of his ruthlessness....before the 2001 Ashes he spoke off re-opening old wounds and he did - remember the hammerings Australia gave England in that year's Nat west series...they did so muxh psycological damage to England the Ashes that year were over before they begun. Contrast that to the 2004 Champions Trophy SF and even the 20-20 last year...if Australia had won those games I reckon the Ashes would have ended differently because England woild have thought"here we go again" - Ponting missed a trick that Steve Waugh wouldn't have....and that's the difference between them.

 

[archie mac]

Patel scored his 50 off like 40 balls or something. They wanted to win that match, Ganguly would have been a God had India won a test series in Australia.

I agree they wanted to win, but I got the impression that they wanted to make sure they could not lose first.

 

[deeps]

That would be true.

Such was the dominance of the Australian team, that teams were always cautiious of the aussies, no matter what.

Even if australia was chasing 100 with one wicket in hand, the opposition captains would be nervous.

But that fear is now gone .... as has tugga

 

[vic_orthdox]

Got nothing to do with Australian batting. They should have attacked Tendulkar more in the first innings.

Tendulkar refused to play a shot outside off because he was out of form, yet they kept bowling outside off to him allowing him to leave, and then they'd just bowl to him on the stumps and he'd pick them off because his eye was in. The field placings to Tendulkar were also poor IMO.

They should have gone for the kill immediately when he walked out there. They knew he was under extreme pressure. Instead they let him get his eye in, have time at the crease, and that was all she wrote for Australia's chances of winning back the Border-Gavaskar Trophy,

But on such a flat pitch, you've got to play a grinding form of cricket as a bowler, because you'll rarely nip blokes out. And it wasn't as though Sachin had written on his forehead, "I'm not playing any cover drives", and I'd reckon that most bowlers would be thinking "He's got to have a dip at one of these eventually".

 

[SJS]

Even for the greatest of captains its tough leading a weak team AND its tougher being assesseda great captain if you lead a great team.

The first may be run down because he is likely to have a RELATIVELY less impressive win-loss record and the latter because his team would be given the credit of a good win-loss record !!

Who said cricket fans are going to be fair

Secondly, there is no way a great captain will be found who did not make mistakes (unless he was captain for a short time). Mistakes, errors of judgement will occur for anyone who TAKES decisions the real test of a POOR leader is one who is UNABLE to take decisions.

The fact that we need to pick out one (or two) incidents of decisions WE disagree with in a long career as a captain doesnt mean the captain wasnt good (great if you please) but that he was so good that the odd error of judgement stood out.

A bad captain doesnt make the odd mistake once in a while, he is just a bad captain AND/OR a bad leader of men. Normally one goes with the other but not always. Ganguly was only one (you decide which).

The other mistake we make is to try and rate (even in our mind we do that when we rundown or eulogise any one) one captain against another. While it is difficult to rate one great batsman (or bowler) against another, its well nigh impossible to rate one great captain against another. If stats are not a great way to evaluate cricketing skills, they are an abysmally poor way to do so for cricket's leaders on and off the field.

Waugh was one of cricket's better captains who came from a country that has produced quite a few good captains. Now, they ahve also produced some of the games finest individual cricketers and some of the best teams. Is there a link between the two yes of course but who made the bigger difference ? Lets keep on arguing

 

[wpdavid]

Always had him down as a contender for the "Thora Hird Could've Captained That Lot" award, and I'll let others decide which of Waugh & Clive Lloyd is the most over-rated test captain. As for all the talk about him lifting Aus to another level, don't forget that his arrival as skipper coincided with deterioration of standards elsewhere, so it really wasn't that big a deal walloping the bunch of no-hopers they were playing in the early 2000's. Doesn't make him a poor skipper, and I totally take the earlier points about his leading from the front and man-management skills. But that's about it, really. Even in my lifetime I'd put him behind Benaud, Ian Chappell, Border & Taylor.

 

[Pratters]

Always had him down as a contender for the "Thora Hird Could've Captained That Lot" award, and I'll let others decide which of Waugh & Clive Lloyd is the most over-rated test captain. As for all the talk about him lifting Aus to another level, don't forget that his arrival as skipper coincided with deterioration of standards elsewhere, so it really wasn't that big a deal walloping the bunch of no-hopers they were playing in the early 2000's. Doesn't make him a poor skipper, and I totally take the earlier points about his leading from the front and man-management skills. But that's about it, really. Even in my lifetime I'd put him behind Benaud, Ian Chappell, Border & Taylor.

Well said David.

 

[archie mac]

Always had him down as a contender for the "Thora Hird Could've Captained That Lot" award, and I'll let others decide which of Waugh & Clive Lloyd is the most over-rated test captain. As for all the talk about him lifting Aus to another level, don't forget that his arrival as skipper coincided with deterioration of standards elsewhere, so it really wasn't that big a deal walloping the bunch of no-hopers they were playing in the early 2000's. Doesn't make him a poor skipper, and I totally take the earlier points about his leading from the front and man-management skills. But that's about it, really. Even in my lifetime I'd put him behind Benaud, Ian Chappell, Border & Taylor.

I thought Border far too negative, I really believe if Waugh was captain of the 89 Ashes team, they would have won that series 6 zip.

I never understood why Taylor is ranked so much higher than Waugh? They had pretty much the same side and Waugh had a far superior record and his side was far more ruthless.

On Lloyd I thought he kept all of the factions in WI cricket in line much better then any other captain they have ever had, except Worrell.

 

[JF.]

Always had him down as a contender for the "Thora Hird Could've Captained That Lot" award, and I'll let others decide which of Waugh & Clive Lloyd is the most over-rated test captain. As for all the talk about him lifting Aus to another level, don't forget that his arrival as skipper coincided with deterioration of standards elsewhere, so it really wasn't that big a deal walloping the bunch of no-hopers they were playing in the early 2000's. Doesn't make him a poor skipper, and I totally take the earlier points about his leading from the front and man-management skills. But that's about it, really. Even in my lifetime I'd put him behind Benaud, Ian Chappell, Border & Taylor.

The same could be said for Ponting - yet people rate Tugga higher than Ponting. Go figure.