Steve Waugh - the overrated test captain

[wpdavid]

The same could be said for Ponting - yet people rate Tugga higher than Ponting. Go figure.

I'm trying to figure your logic. Like most of the planet, I rate Waugh above Ponting, but how does that make him a great captain? Bit like saying Harmison's a world class quick because he's better than Plunkett, no?

 

[wpdavid]

I thought Border far too negative, I really believe if Waugh was captain of the 89 Ashes team, they would have won that series 6 zip.

Not convinced. On paper, the 2 sides were pretty evenly matched in 1989: if anything, Aus started as underdogs. That might not look the case if you read the scorecards now, but don't forget that S. Waugh hadn't done a thing before then, and, IIRC Boon hadn't done too much either. 4-0 was an astonishing result, and, IIRC, it could have been 6-0 if rain hadn't intervened. None of which could be said of Waugh's series in 2001 & 2002/3. He obviously had vastly superior players, and couldn't even engineer a whitewash in 2002/03. Perhaps he might have done in 2001 if he's played at Leeds, but we'll never know.

I never understood why Taylor is ranked so much higher than Waugh? They had pretty much the same side and Waugh had a far superior record and his side was far more ruthless.

Probably to do with the standard of sides faced. SA were much, much better in the mid 1990's than early 2000's. WI still had a more than decent attack when Taylor won over there in 1995. Pakistan had W&W at the peak of their powers. As I said, it's easy to appear ruthless when you're playing no-hopers. Apart from an Indian side with one bowler, of course.

On Lloyd I thought he kept all of the factions in WI cricket in line much better then any other captain they have ever had, except Worrell.

So the theory goes. They were also pretty great in the 60's, of course. FWIW I'd argue that it's easy to keep players together when you're winning, and winning is easier when your tenure as skipper coincides with the arrival of Greenidge, Richards, Roberts, Holding, and, after a while, Garner, Croft & Marshall.

 

[archie mac]

Not convinced. On paper, the 2 sides were pretty evenly matched in 1989: if anything, Aus started as underdogs. That might not look the case if you read the scorecards now, but don't forget that S. Waugh hadn't done a thing before then, and, IIRC Boon hadn't done too much either. 4-0 was an astonishing result, and, IIRC, it could have been 6-0 if rain hadn't intervened. None of which could be said of Waugh's series in 2001 & 2002/3. He obviously had vastly superior players, and couldn't even engineer a whitewash in 2002/03. Perhaps he might have done in 2001 if he's played at Leeds, but we'll never know..

Yes at the time some were saying it was the worst side ever to leave Aust. shores. The first draw could be blamed on the rain, but I thought Border delayed the Dec. far too long in the 6th Test, and the Aussies seemed in no hurry in their 2nd innings scoring at just over 3 an over. I think with the speed Waugh had his charges scoring they would have won the 6th Test for sure and maybe the 3rd as well.

Probably to do with the standard of sides faced. SA were much, much better in the mid 1990's than early 2000's. WI still had a more than decent attack when Taylor won over there in 1995. Pakistan had W&W at the peak of their powers. As I said, it's easy to appear ruthless when you're playing no-hopers. Apart from an Indian side with one bowler, of course.

I don't favour this argument as you only beat the team you play, who is to say that if Waugh was made captain instead of Taylor he would not have steam rolled those sides you mention?

So the theory goes. They were also pretty great in the 60's, of course. FWIW I'd argue that it's easy to keep players together when you're winning, and winning is easier when your tenure as skipper coincides with the arrival of Greenidge, Richards, Roberts, Holding, and, after a while, Garner, Croft & Marshall.

While I agree with what you say, I thought cracks were beginning to appear when Richards was in charge. Lloyd also had a tough time against the Aussies in 1975/76 and I remember that side being pretty united (well they appeared to be anyway). But yes he did have a fair side.

There was that tour of NZ, what a pity there was no foxtel or Sky in those days

 

[wpdavid]

(re. Lloyd) Yup, the NZ tour would have been great viewing! Allegedly Hawkeye & Snicko would have had something to say about the umpiring, too.

I think 1975/6 is an important tour when assessing Lloyd's captaincy, and I reckon it's all too often forgotten. Of course Aus were outstanding, but WI had some great players too. And don't forget that Pakistan drew a couple of series with Aus a year or two later, so it wasn't impossible to compete with them.

 

[Anil]

I thought Border far too negative, I really believe if Waugh was captain of the 89 Ashes team, they would have won that series 6 zip.

I never understood why Taylor is ranked so much higher than Waugh? They had pretty much the same side and Waugh had a far superior record and his side was far more ruthless.

On Lloyd I thought he kept all of the factions in WI cricket in line much better then any other captain they have ever had, except Worrell.

border brought the self-respect back into the team, taylor built it into a winning combination, waugh admittedly carried on the tradition, but he wasn't as good as taylor tactically and he wasn't as good as border at leading from the front....he took on the reins of a winning team and continued winning with it....he was blessed with an excellent batting lineup and two all-time great bowlers and great bowling and fielding support for those two....and more importantly, the entire team including him was used to winning most of the time under taylor and were very confident....

 

[archie mac]

border brought the self-respect back into the team, taylor built it into a winning combination, waugh admittedly carried on the tradition, but he wasn't as good as taylor tactically and he wasn't as good as border at leading from the front....he took on the reins of a winning team and continued winning with it....he was blessed with an excellent batting lineup and two all-time great bowlers and great bowling and fielding support for those two....and more importantly, the entire team including him was used to winning most of the time under taylor and were very confident....

Well he had the same team as Taylor and I thought he took them to another level of winning, the side Taylor took over was a pretty good one too.


Still think Border was to negative even when his side 'had turned the corner' but agree he was just about the best ever when it came to leading from the front.

I would like to clarify that I thought Taylor a first class captain also

 

[Anil]

Well he had the same team as Taylor and I thought he took them to another level of winning, the side Taylor took over was a pretty good one too.


Still think Border was to negative even when his side 'had turned the corner' but agree he was just about the best ever when it came to leading from the front.

I would like to clarify that I thought Taylor a first class captain also

it had the makings of a really good side, and it developed into a great, confident team under taylor....

 

[archie mac]

it had the makings of a really good side, and it developed into a great, confident team under taylor....

I guess we will never know if Waugh would have had the same effect on the team if he would have been chosen instead of Taylor. Langer for one thinks Waugh made him as a Test batsman, and maybe Hayden would also agree.

 

[Anil]

I guess we will never know if Waugh would have had the same effect on the team if he would have been chosen instead of Taylor. Langer for one thinks Waugh made him as a Test batsman, and maybe Hayden would also agree.

we can always make such guesses...or not...there were players with similar kind of loyalty to ganguly in the indian team....doesn't exactly make gangs a brilliant captain...statistically he was the best indian captain, tactically he was very average.....

 

[archie mac]

we can always make such guesses...or not...there were players with similar kind of loyalty to ganguly in the indian team....doesn't exactly make gangs a brilliant captain...statistically he was the best indian captain, tactically he was very average.....

Yes it's always fun to summise, I have to admit to being quite impressed with Ganguly as captain when they toured Aust, and again when they came from behind to win in India.

 

[deeps]

The same could be said for Ponting - yet people rate Tugga higher than Ponting. Go figure.

Ponting lost to Bangladesh, almost lost to them again, lost the Ashes.

Did i mention he lost the ashes?

 

[Poker Boy]

Just a thought about the NZ Test at Brisbane in 2001 - was that declaration even Waugh's idea? Remember in their desperation to win a dead match Australia gave England a chance to win a Test they were outclassed in(Headingley 2001 - although no-one could have anticipated how well Butcher played). Waugh wasn't captain in that match - the common factor in both Tests was Buchannan. Could it have been his idea?

 

[Poker Boy]

About the 1989 Test at the Oval - bad light stopped play with 20.5 overs left and England 143-5. Smith and Russell were not out but there was only Pringle, Nick Cook, Small and Igglesden to come. One quick wicket and they could have won if the light had held. And I read somewhere that Border wanted to declare earlier but Carl Rackemann thought they shouldn't give England a chance(he should have known that shambles of an England team had no chance. 1988 and 1989 were England's two worst years ever). In my opinion Australia owes Border a huge debt - if he had walked at a time when even the Kiwis beat Australia home and away who'd have took over?. He turned a shambles into a good team - an easier task than Taylor, Waugh and Ponting who inherited good teams.

 

[CricketTHe0]

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Now there's some thread gravedigging

 

[Silver Silva]

You have one shot at life, all that matters is the results..at the end of the day

 

[TheJediBrah]

You have one shot

Or one opportunity. To seize everything you ever wanted.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Or one opportunity. To seize everything you ever wanted.

One moment. Will you capture it, or just let it slip?

 

[Burgey]

Poker Boy a very under rated poster itbt.

 

[jcas0167]

Judging captains is very subjective, there is so much off field things we do not see. Almost every player who played under Chappelli rates him the greatest of captains (except Skull and maybe Yallop) but his record is not the greatest (although still pretty good).

On NZs last tour of Aust. I thought Fleming ran out of ideas while leading a side well below par.

To find out the best captain would be like trying to find the best F1 driver; only if they raced in the same car would you really know the answer.

This is a good point. Interestingly, Craig McMillan who obviously played most of his career under Fleming rated Shane Warne the best captain he played under (based on a season at Hampshire).