Spinner for 1946-2006 World Test XI

[Dasa]

Drop it Dasa. Waste of time tbh.

I always seem to get sucked in against my better judgement. I'll take your advice now, if only to avoid tearing out all my hair out of frustration.

 

[R_D]

Maybe should read about it and you will not have to roll your eyes



I don't remember saying he was the greatest spinner ever, I don't know what form SRT was in that last series V SL, but I think his batting made Warne look 2nd rate when ever they clashed in India

I can't exactly remember btu pretty sure Warne popped his shoulder during the ODI series but given his poor performance in Tests it was perfect excuse.... shoulders injury so bowled crap.
His second tour... that was teh come back.. he had a good series before going to india but than soon as he landed in india, he went out of form.
This is all just going for memory but i'll check back on it later and see whether what i say is true or not

 

[archie mac]

I can't exactly remember btu pretty sure Warne popped his shoulder during the ODI series but given his poor performance in Tests it was perfect excuse.... shoulders injury so bowled crap.
His second tour... that was teh come back.. he had a good series before going to india but than soon as he landed in india, he went out of form.
This is all just going for memory but i'll check back on it later and see whether what i say is true or not

I think he had a damaged shoulder before he arrived in India, but was told he could do no further damage so he decided to play and have the operation after the tour.

Tendukar in the mean time had young leg spinners bowl to him for hours on end on a roughed up pitch, so was at the top of his game, and let poor old Warney and the rest of the Aussies have it.

It turned out Warne got some bad advice and he had almost ruined his shoulder and was told if he had played in many more matches he may have never played cricket again

 

[JBH001]

Yeah, really.

              Mat   O     R     W    BBI    BBM     Ave  Econ    SR    5  10

Murali        49  2586.2  6671  268   9/65  16/220  24.89  2.57  57.9 20  6

Warne         76  3548    9575  389   7/94  12/246  24.61  2.69  54.7 22  6

Actually Murali has made some ground this year. That's their records away from home.

Dont know where you got your figures from, but the Cricinfo stats for Warne do not match yours at all. So, I would like to know where those figures are from.

Cricinfo S Warne away figures are:

73 3424 9233 362 7/165 12/246 25.50 2.69 56.7 20 5

Oh wait, maybe you are including Warne's figures in the series against Pakistan on neutral ground - where Australia basically played a Pak 2nd XI?
If so, those are legitimate figures - but again, in nearly every country Murali has better than or equal figures than Warne.

 

[Ikki]

Dont know where you got your figures from, but the Cricinfo stats for Warne do not match yours at all. So, I would like to know where those figures are from.

Cricinfo S Warne away figures are:

73 3424 9233 362 7/165 12/246 25.50 2.69 56.7 20 5

Oh wait, maybe you are including Warne's figures in the series against Pakistan on neutral ground - where Australia basically played a Pak 2nd XI?
If so, those are legitimate figures - but again, in nearly every country Murali has better than or equal figures than Warne.

Stats are for Warne/Murali playing in any team in any country except their own. Indeed, I did not make them up.

 

[R_D]

I think he had a damaged shoulder before he arrived in India, but was told he could do no further damage so he decided to play and have the operation after the tour.

Tendukar in the mean time had young leg spinners bowl to him for hours on end on a roughed up pitch, so was at the top of his game, and let poor old Warney and the rest of the Aussies have it.

It turned out Warne got some bad advice and he had almost ruined his shoulder and was told if he had played in many more matches he may have never played cricket again

Fair enough.
Warne's a great bowler but imho he's been hyped up so much by the supposed ball of the century. He's failed to live up to his reputation against the best players of spin, you're also judged on how you do against the best and Warne's failed pretty miserably against the best players of spin.
Like i said i'll give you shoulder injury.. still an excuse tho but than people come up with the argument that second time Warne toured he was out of form.... which is farm from truth.
He had a good series against NZ.. Avg 27.6 with 15 wickets and went to india and he was out of form.... He saw the sight of his Eng bunnies and Warne's back in form.
Against Eng.. 31 wickets at 18.70. Series before against India 10wckets at 50.50

 

[Ikki]

Was bored...:

If you substitute Murali's Home record for Warne's Home record the figures end up like:


Warne: 137 Games; 795 Wickets; 17553 Runs; 22.079 Average; 53.428 Strike Rate


If you substitute Murali's Home record for Warne's Home record the figures end up like:


Murali: 116 Games; 578 Wickets; 14914 Runs; 25.80 Average; 59.76 Strike Rate


I'm no wizz at maths but just wanted to try it out. It's pretty simple and I'm sure has flaws but it shows how much difference his home record actually makes. It actually benefits Murali 2 ways because the difference between Warne's home record and his Sri Lanka record is much smaller than the difference between Murali's home record and his Australia record:


1 - Warne's record in Sri Lanka is better than Murali's:

         Mat    O     R    W    BBI    BBM     Ave  Econ   SR   5   10

Murali:  61 3531.1  7978  406  9/51  13/115  19.65  2.25  52.1  37  13

Warne:    9  317.2   982  48  7/94   11/188  20.45  3.09  39.6  6    3

2 - Warne's record in Australia is better than Murali's:

         Mat    O     R    W    BBI    BBM     Ave   Econ   SR    5   10

Murali:   3    146   505   8   3/55   5/157   63.12  3.45  109.5  0   0

Warne:   67  3171.1  8243 310  8/71  12/128   26.59  2.59  61.3   14  4

Just some other interesting stats: Murali's record against Australia in either Sri Lanka or Australia

           Mat    O       R   W    BBI    BBM     Ave   Econ    SR   5 10

Sri Lanka: 8    423.3   1223  47  6/59  11/212   26.02  2.88   54.0  5  1
Australia: 3    146     505   8   3/55   5/157   63.12  3.45  109.5  0  0

And furthermore for Warne against Sri Lanka in either Sri Lanka or Australia

          Mat    O       R   W   BBI    BBM     Ave   Econ    SR   5  10

Sri Lanka: 8   262.2   794  37  5/43  10/155   21.45  3.02   42.5  5  2
Australia: 5   265.3   713  22  4/70   7/199   32.40  2.68   72.4  0  0

Kinda clear that playing so much in Sri Lanka has helped Murali much more than playing in Australia has helped Warne.

 

[JBH001]

Kinda clear that playing so much in Sri Lanka has helped Murali much more than playing in Australia has helped Warne.

No, it would only do so if Warne's record in other test nations, apart from their respective homes, is better than Murali's in other test nations and Murali's advantage at home is significantly better than Warne's at home.

The second of these 2 conditions is satisfied, Murali does do better at home compared to Warne at home, but he also does better or as well as Warne in almost every other test playing nation. If they therefore, hypothetically speaking, played the same number of tests home and away, Murali's overall statistical advantage would be lessened, but it would still indicate a clear numerical and statistical superiority - and deservedly so.

 

[silentstriker]

Over/Under on the number of times these same arguments have been presented? I say 234.

 

[JBH001]

Yes, I know SS.

(sometimes I can't help myself)


Anyway, I am done for now, in fact, for a while.
(and to think, for a long time I was a Warne man lol!)

Time to go to the gym anyway.

 

[Ikki]

No, it would only do so if Warne's record in other test nations, apart from their respective homes, is better than Murali's in other test nations and Murali's advantage at home is significantly better than Warne's at home.

The second of these 2 conditions is satisfied, Murali does do better at home compared to Warne at home, but he also does better or as well as Warne in almost every other test playing nation. If they therefore, hypothetically speaking, played the same number of tests home and away, Murali's overall statistical advantage would be lessened, but it would still indicate a clear numerical superiority - and deservedly so.

No, overall Warne has the greater away record. In Australia - where Warne has bowled almost half his test career and has the lesser favourable conditions - he has done very well and to give that average to Murali is actually an upgrade. But my point was how Murali's record in SRI LANKA - where he bowled more than half his career in - has inflated his record by so much - not just his wickets either. And in actual fact Warne does better in Sri Lanka than Murali. So, if, hypothetically, Warne had the same Home ground comforts as Murali it's reasonable to assume that Warne would have many more superior stats than he currently does and if Murali were in Warne's position, he'd be in a much inferior situation. And, frankly, despite this disadvantage Warne stacks up very well.

To reiterate: the reason why the home record is extra crucial is because so many games are played there - especially in Murali's case - where it proves to be a defining factor.

 

[R_D]

His series averages in India are:

1. 35
2. 103
3. 31

Warne's are:

1. 54
2. 50.50
3. 30.07

Basically neither does all that well, but Warne and Murali both did well (by non-Indian spinner standards) in their last tour.

Both had a good tour... both probaly benefitted bit from the indian batsman not being in good form. In the seond test match Murali ran through the indian side.. he took like 3 or 4 wickets in a matter of few overs... never seen any spinner do that to indian batsman. Plenty of fast bowlers have done it thou

 

[aussie tragic]

Interesting that Warne clearly won the spinner slot over Murali in the 1986-2005 XI, but here it's turned around

btw, how come no-one has mentioned murali's extremely career inflating record against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe (or maybe I missed it)

vs Bagladesh: 6 tests, 50 wkts @ 12.52 (7/2) SR 28.6

vs Zimbabwe: 14 tests, 87 wkts @ 16.86 (6/2) SR 54.2

 

[Dasa]

^Plenty has been said about that already. Anyway, on just statistical terms, Murali comes out slightly ahead if you remove Bangladesh/Zimbabwe anyway.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Haha, 50 wickets in 6 Tests is still so good.

 

[chaminda_00]

Interesting that Warne clearly won the spinner slot over Murali in the 1986-2005 XI, but here it's turned around

Probably cus when that was running Murali was bowling crap at the Champions' Trophy and now his bowling well again. Its seem to me when it comes to a vote between Murali and Warne the current form of each bowlers makes the difference. If one is bowling average, then the other wins.

 

[R_D]

Haha, 50 wickets in 6 Tests is still so good.

Warne had his chance against Bangladesh as well but messed up in the first innings badly

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Feels like we've had this debate before. Warne for me.

Who got the first spinner slot in the 1986-2006 team? It would be somewhat fitting if the positions were reversed for this one, given how close the debate has generally been on CW.

EDIT: Missed a few posts, evidently. Apparently it was Warne.

 

[Burgey]

Warne.
He & Murali both greats, but Warne changed the game to a greater extent.
This selection may also depend on where the test's being played. If it's here, finger spinners don't generally do as well as wrist spinners. On the subcontinent, maybe run with Murali.

 

[Jamee999]

Warne from Murali by the tiniest of margins.