Spinner for 1946-2006 World Test XI

[archie mac]

Not wanting to start a hornest nest, but I was watching quite a lot of the Sri Lanka V NZ match, and I really think they should retest Murali when he is bowling his Doosra (spelling)

 

[adharcric]

Can we get some reasoning Archie?

 

[archie mac]

Can we get some reasoning Archie?

I was trying to be subtle, but I thought his arm was bending a lot more for that delivery then his standard ball (which I know he has a permanent bend) but for the doosra it seemed much more pronounced.

I know he has had trouble in the past with his doosra, so maybe he needs to be re-tested to make sure he has not gotten back into bad habits

 

[JBH001]

Er, yah. News to me, Murali is a finger spinner?

Quote Murali's stats at home and away? Having played more than half his games there, don't even try to brush it off. Then look at Murali in Australia, where, apart from Sydney, there really is no spinner's pitches and see how he does there? Then see how Warne does at home. And if it's purely about the Australian side, go quote Kumble's stats in Australia or Vettori's.

The obvious will remain: Murali does MUCH better at home and considering that's where he plays most his cricket it does inflate the ol' record - as do other things regarding Murali.

Errr, actually Murali's record overseas bar Australia is better than or equal to Warne's in nearly every test playing nation.

 

[JBH001]

I was trying to be subtle, but I thought his arm was bending a lot more for that delivery then his standard ball (which I know he has a permanent bend) but for the doosra it seemed much more pronounced.

I know he has had trouble in the past with his doosra, so maybe he needs to be re-tested to make sure he has not gotten back into bad habits

Hmm, I have a few issues myself with the Doosra. though perhaps not as many as I did a while ago. Murali can bowl the Doosra with minimal flex as he showed when bowling with the arm brace on, only he bowls it a lot slower - partly explained by the weight of the brace, and partly by not bowling naturally at all.

However, these days, even if he does flirt with the 15 degree limit, I am inclined to let it go - though I, perhaps, need to think about this a little further.

 

[silentstriker]

Frankly, I think everyone chucks the doosra. Harbhabjan too. I am not sure if its possible without chucking it (or at least I haven't seen it done without the chuck).

 

[Ikki]

Errr, actually Murali's record overseas bar Australia is better than or equal to Warne's in nearly every test playing nation.

Overall his away record is inferior to Warne. And their record in Australia really illustrates something about the two.

 

[Dasa]

Er, yah. News to me, Murali is a finger spinner?

Missed the point. The point is that spinners as a whole do not do that well in Sri Lanka, whether they are finger-spinners or leg-spinners. Thus, there's no sound reasoning behind saying that he plays on 'doctored' pitches.

Quote Murali's stats at home and away? Having played more than half his games there, don't even try to brush it off. Then look at Murali in Australia, where, apart from Sydney, there really is no spinner's pitches and see how he does there? Then see how Warne does at home. And if it's purely about the Australian side, go quote Kumble's stats in Australia or Vettori's.

Murali has only played three games in Australia and two of those were early in his career when he was a much worse bowler than he is now. He did a decent job and was unlucky in the recent 'SuperTest' against Australia.

The obvious will remain: Murali does MUCH better at home and considering that's where he plays most his cricket it does inflate the ol' record - as do other things regarding Murali.

How does it inflate the record? They're not 'doctored' pitches, no matter how many times you say it it still won't be true. The other things regarding Murali that you claim inflate his record only do so in terms of number of wickets. He still has a better record than Warne if you remove his games against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Then again, you tried to argue elsewhere that Warne is better purely because he has more wickets. I suppose you'll be declaring Kumble a better bowler than Ambrose then.

 

[Ikki]

Missed the point. The point is that spinners as a whole do not do that well in Sri Lanka, whether they are finger-spinners or leg-spinners. Thus, there's no sound reasoning behind saying that he plays on 'doctored' pitches.

Except Murali and Warne, right? And as a comparison between these two how do they shape up? Hmm, yeah, I'm sure you get the point.

Murali has only played three games in Australia and two of those were early in his career when he was a much worse bowler than he is now. He did a decent job and was unlucky in the recent 'SuperTest' against Australia.

Oh okay, so should we also take out tests where Warne wasn't a good bowler?

Vettori and Kumble hadn't really camped in Australia too long either mate - their records are much better though - and Warne's even better than them, despite the poor-assistance of the pitch. Also, why hasn't Murali been to Australia? I remember a couple times he was injured and another time he "didn't feel the love" so he skipped coming. I see, good on him.

How does it inflate the record? They're not 'doctored' pitches, no matter how many times you say it it still won't be true. The other things regarding Murali that you claim inflate his record only do so in terms of number of wickets. He still has a better record than Warne if you remove his games against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Then again, you tried to argue elsewhere that Warne is better purely because he has more wickets. I suppose you'll be declaring Kumble a better bowler than Ambrose then.

How doesn't it? Bowling on your home ground, against the weaker sides, pretty much by yourself, and not expecting to take a bag-full of wickets and not concede as many on THAT pitch? Dude, look at his average for home and away. If you don't think it inflates his record, I have nothing to say to you.

 

[JBH001]

Overall his away record is inferior to Warne. And their record in Australia really illustrates something about the two.

Oh really?

MM

49 Test
2586.2 Overs
6671 Runs
268 Wickets
9/65 BBi
16/220 BBm
24.89 rpw
2.57 econ
57.9 SR
20 5wi
6 10wm

SW

73 Test
3424 Overs
9233 Runs
362 Wickets
7/165 BBi
12/246 BBm
25.50 rpw
2.69 econ
56.7 SR
20 5wi
5 10wm

Records in each country (bar Aus/Sri Lanka/Zim and Bang)

MM vs England 6 test 48 wkts 19.20 rpw 48.2 SR
SW vs England 22 test 129 wkts 21.94 rpw 52.3 SR

MM vs India 8 tests 31 wkts 39.58 rpw 81.8 SR
SW vs India 9 tests 34 wkts 43.11 rpw 81.0 SR

MM vs NZ 6 tests 30 wkts 19.96 rpw 52.2 SR
SW vs NZ 9 tests 49 wkts 21.30 rpw 51.4 SR

MM vs Pak 7 tests 49 wkts 21.48 rpw 50.1 SR
SW vs Pak 3 tests 18 wkts 28.00 rpw 60.5 SR

MM vs Sth Africa 6 tests 35 wkts 26.02 rpw 60.5 SR
SW vs Sth Africa 12 tests 61 wkts 24.31 rpw 60.3 SR

MM vs W Indies 4 tests 25 wkts 18.24 rpw 41.9 SR
SW vs W Indies 7 tests 17 wkts 39.64 rpw 78.2 SR

 

[adharcric]

Drop it Dasa. Waste of time tbh.

 

[archie mac]

MM vs India 8 tests 31 wkts 39.58 rpw 81.8 SR
SW vs India 9 tests 34 wkts 43.11 rpw 81.0 SR

Surprised by their poor form in India, always suppose to help the spinners, I know Warne had a bad shoulder during one series, what is MMs excuse?

 

[R_D]

I have morale issues about voting for a drug cheat so i'll go for Murali.

 

[silentstriker]

Surprised by their poor form in India, always suppose to help the spinners, I know Warne had a bad shoulder during one series, what is MMs excuse?

Indians in India are probably the best players of spin on the planet, and always have been.

 

[Ikki]

Oh really?

Yeah, really.

              Mat   O     R     W    BBI    BBM     Ave  Econ    SR    5  10

Murali        49  2586.2  6671  268   9/65  16/220  24.89  2.57  57.9 20  6

Warne         76  3548    9575  389   7/94  12/246  24.61  2.69  54.7 22  6

Actually Murali has made some ground this year. That's their records away from home.

 

[silentstriker]

Surprised by their poor form in India, always suppose to help the spinners, I know Warne had a bad shoulder during one series, what is MMs excuse?

To just to add to that, the foreigner who plays spin well in India was Andy Flower. That dude just dominated our spinners, almost gave me a heart attack every time he batted. Foreigners aren't supposed to do that to our spinners at home.

 

[R_D]

Surprised by their poor form in India, always suppose to help the spinners, I know Warne had a bad shoulder during one series, what is MMs excuse?

Yeah i heard Warne popped his shoulder in one series and than was out of form soon as he landed in india.

Murali only toured india once after 98 or 99. He wasn't that good of a bowler in the 90's. He had avg of 102 in a 2 test match series in 93 i think. He toured india last year and had a pretty good series. He ran through the indian batting lineup somthing i'm yet to see the Greatest Spinner ever born do yet.

 

[silentstriker]

Yeah i heard Warne popped his shoulder in one series and than was out of form soon as he landed in india.

Murali only toured india once after 98 or 99. He wasn't that good of a bowler in the 90's. He had avg of 102 in a 2 test match series in 93 i think. He toured india last year and had a pretty good series. He ran through the indian batting lineup somthing i'm yet to see the Greatest Spinner ever born do yet.

His series averages in India are:

1. 35
2. 103
3. 31

Warne's are:

1. 54
2. 50.50
3. 30.07

Basically neither does all that well, but Warne and Murali both did well (by non-Indian spinner standards) in their last tour.

 

[silentstriker]

Also, Warne's best figures in India are 6/125, whereas Murali's are 8/218.

So, yea, they both struggle. But both of them made up (slighlty) in their last series. Neither has had a phenomenal tour.

 

[archie mac]

Yeah i heard Warne popped his shoulder in one series and than was out of form soon as he landed in india.

Maybe should read about it and you will not have to roll your eyes

Murali only toured india once after 98 or 99. He wasn't that good of a bowler in the 90's. He had avg of 102 in a 2 test match series in 93 i think. He toured india last year and had a pretty good series. He ran through the indian batting lineup somthing i'm yet to see the Greatest Spinner ever born do yet.

I don't remember saying he was the greatest spinner ever, I don't know what form SRT was in that last series V SL, but I think his batting made Warne look 2nd rate when ever they clashed in India