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South Africa team selection

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Yeah, the SA Academy is for provincial players and players in-between provincial and franchise. Obviously the the pathway from SA u19s , franchise colts and university weeks. But you can only be a part of the academy for one off-season. Just be a nice if the best young cricketers not in SA set-up played and toured together every off season.

I definitely do think there are a number of players who shouldn't playing franchise cricket blocking more talented players. Titans system is probably the only one spot on.
I agree with all that..

but I just want an actual number... because the rhetoric I get is that half the people playing in provincial teams and franchise teams are undeservedly in the team and only there because of quota. I see one or two spotty player in the franchise teams sometimes, but also note that there is not necessarily somebody better for that position at provincial level; but I don't know the players that well. I think my biggest concern is more the age of the 'black' players, who are not always of quality (30's) taking up quota spots and I'm thinking there must be a young talented player of colour that should be given opportunity; That is the point of the system to try improve and produce players from 'previously disadvantaged' places and give maximum opportunity. Not pick so-so players late in career who have not ever stepped up to the next level.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
I think my biggest concern is more the age of the 'black' players, who are not always of quality (30's) taking up quota spots and I'm thinking there must be a young talented player of colour that should be given opportunity;
That does seem to be a symptom of something I know we've discussed in the past - the lack of black batsmen coming through the system. That means that those who get picked in order to meet the quota requirements are not only on the older side but also probably shouldn't be in the side, as if they're not averaging 30 after having been around for some time they never will.
 

Rasimione

U19 Captain
That does seem to be a symptom of something I know we've discussed in the past - the lack of black batsmen coming through the system. That means that those who get picked in order to meet the quota requirements are not only on the older side but also probably shouldn't be in the side, as if they're not averaging 30 after having been around for some time they never will.
Why is it that we struggle to produce black batsmen?
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Why is it that we struggle to produce black batsmen?
Since re-admission we've had the following average 40+ who have a decent length test career.

Cullinan
G.Kirsten
Kallis
Gibbs
Prince
G.Smith
de Villiers
Amla
du Plessis
Elgar
(Wessels, de Kock and McMillan virtually 40 but obviously 2 didn't get to play early with SA)
You then start going to McKenzie, Cronje, Rhodes the next best with 35-37

Then consider the number of batsman who dominate domestically and couldn't turn that into test domination. So many.

This was never going to be a short-term process. CSA have promised financial assistance and for years now they have been giving coaching and it is improving all the time and the hubs I have seen on magazine programmes look very impressive.

Right now Bavuma averages 37.50 in first class cricket and that to me is a positive but it certainly doesn't mean he will be a massive success at test level (averaging 33) . I think the next step is to try and produce more dominant FC batsman with 40+ averages to give us a better chance of producing top black test batsman but I don't think it is a problem only for young black batsman but also white, coloured, asian. Test cricket is not easy and with it being an individual sport within a team game your individual results are amplified and scrutinised. We just got to keep working hard.

Think about the guys who dominated domestic cricket and honed their skills with years of runs and didn't state their case to be a top international test batsman.

Andrew Hudson
Mark Rushmere (harsh on him as limited chances and timing)
John Commins
Rudi Steyn
Adam Bacher
HD Ackerman
Gehardus Liebenberg
Boeta Dippenaar
Justin Kemp
Justin Ontong
Martin van Jaarsveld
Jacques Rudolph
Zander de Bruyn
JP Duminy
Stiaan van Zyl
Stephen Cook
Heino Kuhn


Just played ODIs
Dave Callaghan
Louis Koen
Dale Benkenstein
Jon Kent
Morne van Wyk
Andrew Puttick
Vaughn van Jaarsveld
Farhaan Behardien
Rilee Rossouw
 
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SeamUp

International Coach
With Morkel retiring , I think they will want to make sure Morris finds his mojo and peaks for the world cup. Currently 20.5 4-42 for the Titans - demonstrating a level of dominance more than others when dropped to the level below. It is frustrating.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
With Morkel retiring , I think they will want to make sure Morris finds his mojo and peaks for the world cup. Currently 20.5 4-42 for the Titans - demonstrating a level of dominance more than others when dropped to the level below. It is frustrating.
Almost Duminy like.... Morris has real pace but lacks control. That can get you wickets at FC level but International?

I`m thinking, even in Eng, 2 spinners may be the way to go. Tahir and Shamsi. Rabada, Phehlukwayo and then either Morris/Mulder or Ngidi. And obviously Steyn is still possible? I like Ngidi and Phehlukwayo as wicket to wicket bowlers, with potential change ups. Leaving Tahir, Shamsi and Rabada as wicket takers. and I know that gives us a long batting line-up but our top 4 is pretty strong and think with Markram in team with Klaasens coming in at 6, will solidify our top 6 overall. I think we have been batting Phehlukwayo to low and he has not been given a role in the team. If we play him we need to decide what we want from him.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Almost Duminy like.... Morris has real pace but lacks control. That can get you wickets at FC level but International?

I`m thinking, even in Eng, 2 spinners may be the way to go. Tahir and Shamsi. Rabada, Phehlukwayo and then either Morris/Mulder or Ngidi. And obviously Steyn is still possible? I like Ngidi and Phehlukwayo as wicket to wicket bowlers, with potential change ups. Leaving Tahir, Shamsi and Rabada as wicket takers. and I know that gives us a long batting line-up but our top 4 is pretty strong and think with Markram in team with Klaasens coming in at 6, will solidify our top 6 overall. I think we have been batting Phehlukwayo to low and he has not been given a role in the team. If we play him we need to decide what we want from him.
Morris' initial better success was with the red ball in SA franchise cricket. I just wonder what he has to do to prove himself again ? It will be difficult but we lack options.

For me Phehlukwayo had as much of a disappointing limited overs series (50 and T20) than a few others being questioned. He wasn't even bowling his quota of overs in T20s.

His domestic batting has shown a lack of meaningful runs in the longer version and when he got the opportunities to stand-up vs India he couldn't.

Like Morris I think he also needs to have a serious look at what he is trying to achieve as a bowler separately and as a batsman separately.

I can't believe he is having a rest. 4-day cricket is where he can hone his skills. Only 3 games till season end.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Morris' initial better success was with the red ball in SA franchise cricket. I just wonder what he has to do to prove himself again ? It will be difficult but we lack options.

For me Phehlukwayo had as much of a disappointing limited overs series (50 and T20) than a few others being questioned. He wasn't even bowling his quota of overs in T20s.

His domestic batting has shown a lack of meaningful runs in the longer version and when he got the opportunities to stand-up vs India he couldn't.

Like Morris I think he also needs to have a serious look at what he is trying to achieve as a bowler separately and as a batsman separately.


I can't believe he is having a rest. 4-day cricket is where he can hone his skills. Only 3 games till season end.
Phehlukwayo and Morris have been hard done by SA selection I think, neither are being treated as bowlers or batsmen, they are being treated as part time bowlers that can hit the ball a bit... but then when we do badly told to they did not do their job as bowler or batsmen, take you pick. And this I think has caused loss of focus. Still think that both have a part to play for the LO team.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Phehlukwayo and Morris have been hard done by SA selection I think, neither are being treated as bowlers or batsmen, they are being treated as part time bowlers that can hit the ball a bit... but then when we do badly told to they did not do their job as bowler or batsmen, take you pick. And this I think has caused loss of focus. Still think that both have a part to play for the LO team.
They have been backed though.

I genuinely think taking stock with Gibson and a few trusted people and then playing cricket the level below can be a tonic.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
I know de Bruyn has been treated unfairly with his stop-start chances and opening in NewZealand. But the fact that he has deserved the opportunities through domination of the level below is a massive concern.

Technically he plays across the ball and out in front. Will always nick off against quality.

Ok Temba Bavuma is there but again averaging 33 over a number of matches with a few match saving innings. What do we expect of him when he comes in for the next test and a run of games ? I don't want to accept mediocrity so either he smashes it with 40+ or also must be scrapped.

Klaasen may be a good option because of his attitude, positivity and quick scoring. He is a certainty to travel to Sri Lanka.

Markram is slightly behind in his development because of getting his franchise opportunity so late. He is learning on the job unfortunately but he is definitely someone we have to stick with. He has the mentality and the tools.

My concerns are the next batch of batsman are massively behind from what we produced in the past and a few talented players we don't know where they stand at franchise level as opportunities still need to come. Talking mainly Ricketlon and Bedingham. Muthusamy and Hamza have 1 franchise century each ? Sen may have 2.

Also not quite sure where de Zorzi and Moonsamy are at the Titans. Got the opportunities but probably need to do more to be definite picks at the Titans.

I think the 20-year olds are the most talented in Mulder, Breetzke and van Tonder but they have lots of learning experiences to go through still. I don't think they have played at each test ground in FC yet even ?

The seniors

Elgar - been patchy since the start of the year but off a massive year and our senior grafter opener.
Amla - Not what he used to be but we can't afford to leave him out at this stage.
AB - Class apart at this moment.
Faf - Our 2nd best batsman at this moment
de Kock - out of form and mentally fatigued. Looked much better here but obviously now needs the runs.
 
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StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I know de Bruyn has been treated unfairly with his stop-start chances and opening in NewZealand. But the fact that he has deserved the opportunities through domination of the level below is a massive concern.

Technically he plays across the ball and out in front. Will always nick off against quality.

Ok Temba Bavuma is there but again averaging 33 over a number of matches with a few match saving innings. What do we expect of him when he comes in for the next test and a run of games ? I don't want to accept mediocrity so either he smashes it with 40+ or also must be scrapped.

Klaasen may be a good option because of his attitude, positivity and quick scoring. He is a certainty to travel to Sri Lanka.

Markram is slightly behind in his development because of getting his franchise opportunity so late. He is learning on the job unfortunately but he is definitely someone we have to stick with. He has the mentality and the tools.

My concerns are the next batch of batsman are massively behind from what we produced in the past and a few talented players we don't know where they stand at franchise level as opportunities still need to come. Talking mainly Ricketlon and Bedingham. Muthusamy and Hamza have 1 franchise century each ? Sen may have 2.

Also not quite sure where de Zorzi and Moonsamy are at the Titans. Got the opportunities but probably need to do more to be definite picks at the Titans.

I think the 20-year olds are the most talented in Mulder, Breetzke and van Tonder but they have lots of learning experiences to go through still. I don't think they have played at each test ground in FC yet even ?

The seniors

Elgar - been patchy since the start of the year but off a massive year and our senior grafter opener.
Amla - Not what he used to be but we can't afford to leave him out at this stage.
AB - Class apart at this moment.
Faf - Our 2nd best batsman at this moment
de Kock - out of form and mentally fatigued. Looked much better here but obviously now needs the runs.
Before the batsmen get it in the neck, I do think that we gave to many runs away. Morkel was terrible and if we are going the 4 bowler route then we can not afford any bad bowling. Rabada was also not at his best. Considering where we had Aus they scored at least 50+ more run than they should have today. 280 a.o. is psychologically much better.

Elgar and Markram worry me the most. If we are going to end up continuously 30/2 then you can never have a good enough batting lineup... Elgar been poor since the beginning of the year and I'm not quite sure why it has suddenly got so bad, some of the shots he has got out to are just not understandable. Lack of concentration? My worry regarding Markram is he does not play like an opener, he hits the ball in the air so very often; he is getting good looking 20's/30's and not much else, can see the talent. But the real worry is like the way he got out today? We all knew what Aus was doing and when the (very good) short ball came along he fends at it? Evade, wear it or play a full blooded shot? For a man who is meant to be a thinking cricketer it is almost like he was surprised when it came.

Amla is not what he was, but is still pretty good, sometimes you just get out early. ABdV and Faf nothing needs to be said. QDK is out of form, somebody in the management needs to find a way to work with him, we can't just keep saying he is a confidence player and it will come back, they need to help him find his way back.

I prefer Bavuma to de Bruyn, even though de Bruyn is more talented. Prefer Bavuma's attitude and nuggitiness, and I think his fielding is a great asset to the team. He has created a number of wickets by his fielding. Else we must just play Mulder and hope for the best.

I don't think we can change much except for #7 spot... I just think something not quite working psychologically and not sure what?

As for the future I think they desperately need to bring in an extra franchise team; and/or also organize more tours for the 'A' team throughout the year, best chance of them getting quality opposition consistently.
 
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Bahseph

International Debutant
I'm going to reserve any harsh criticism I have until this Test is atleast over but I think it's apparent that we are going to be in big trouble once Amla, AB and Faf are gone.

You guys are right about the problems we have with the next generation. Bavuma is a fighter and has the temperament but are we really expecting him to start scoring big hundreds for us? I'm not. de Bruyn obviously has the talent but just watching him in defence shows how easily he can be exploited. If he can work on that I think he could come good. And as for de Kock, it's all well and good being a confidence player but there's also a need to knuckle down. And I've never seen him knuckle down. Even when he has played us out of trouble. If he carries on like this he will still be a very, very good player, but he won't fulfill his potential.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
SeamUp mentioned in the tour thread that maybe Morkel needs to be dropped probably for Ngidi; I know he took some wickets late in the day and it feels very, very harsh... but in both the Indian series and this first game he just is not making the impact you would like, particularly considering he is getting the new ball. It would be an easy choice if Steyn was available.

In PE, Morkel may be better with that back of length that could keep low... but Ngidi does bowl at the stumps with that angle in, perfect for a 3rd seamer on lower, slower wickets? Difficult choice. I will say that if Ngidi plays , I may be tempted to play Mulder as cover with an extra bowler; Cant see him scoring less runs than de Bruyn has done? I am assuming that Bavuma is not available. Tough selection decisions for SA.
 

SeamUp

International Coach
Think Amla, AB, Faf may lose the will to fight for much longer than the WC.

CSA and the government felt the need to change franchise cricket and I'm afraid to say you only as good as your next rung and right now we have no one pushing seniors whose games really are on the wane ?
 

akilana

International 12th Man
Hopefully they don’t go back to temba. He is a proven failure. Give de bruyn more chances to fail before looking for a replacement.
 

StephenZA

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Hopefully they don’t go back to temba. He is a proven failure. Give de bruyn more chances to fail before looking for a replacement.
No more than the half dozen other batsmen we have tried.... at least he has shown some real fight. And his fielding is fantastic...
 

akilana

International 12th Man
No more than the half dozen other batsmen we have tried.... at least he has shown some real fight. And his fielding is fantastic...
If you play long enough, you will probably get a couple of decent inmings. See Duminy.

It wasnt half a dozen. Only van zyl.
 

Dendarii

International Debutant
If you take away the nightmare series Bavuma had against Sri Lanka (10 runs over 3 matches), he averages 37.51 in 24 matches. Only one century there, but far from "a proven failure".
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Eh, depends on your standards in a way. Bavuma is obviously never going to be a complete gun with a really good Test record, so whether you think he should be persisted with depends on whether you think South Africa's youth and domestic setups are producing lots of players capable of averaging 45+, or if it's probably true that averaging mid-30s while scoring important fifties to rescue innings occasionally is probably the best the seventh best batsman in South Africa is going to contribute right now.
 

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