South Africa team selection

[MrPrez]

Always rated Harmer - he's a big loss.

 

[Bolo]

Looks pretty spot on. For me elgar is on fine ice though, has been dreadful for a while now.

Id kinda like to drop him for india, but not permanently. He is woeful against spin. Even when he has form

 

[StephenZA]

Looks pretty spot on. For me elgar is on fine ice though, has been dreadful for a while now.

It is amazing how 12 months ago Elgar scored 1000 runs and was our best bat. And QDK was under pressure until this summer and is now our best bat. Problem is you can't carry out of form players when you entire batting line-up is weak.

Always rated Harmer - he's a big loss.

He was a big loss, also unfortunate when he got injured and Maharaj did so well. Always felt unfair to me that you always have 3 seamers in a team and only 1 spinner...... not much opportunity then.

 

[SeamUp]

Id kinda like to drop him for india, but not permanently. He is woeful against spin. Even when he has form

When Elgar is at his best he actually plays spin well using his feet and scores runs doing so.

We desperately need him to be our old dog for our young men in this test team but I'm not sure if he is talented enough to carry on till he is 35/36

 

[Stefan9]

It is amazing how 12 months ago Elgar scored 1000 runs and was our best bat. And QDK was under pressure until this summer and is now our best bat. Problem is you can't carry out of form players when you entire batting line-up is weak.

He was a big loss, also unfortunate when he got injured and Maharaj did so well. Always felt unfair to me that you always have 3 seamers in a team and only 1 spinner...... not much opportunity then.

Problem is even when qdk was in bad form his catching was still good. Elgar's batting and fielding has gone down the drain this year.

 

[MrPrez]

Pick for India right now.

Elgar
Markram
Hamza
Bavuma
Faf
QDK
Mulder
Piedt
Maharaj
Steyn
Rabada

Shamsi/Muthumsamy, 2 of Philander/Ngidi/Olivier, de Bruyn( I would actually like to pick another bats but he is still current best alternate).

Agreed minus Shamsi. This is the most sensible pick-up.

I know it's probably silly but I'd love to see Qeshile go along rather than de Bruyn - he's clearly in fantastic form, whereas de Bruyn hasn't impressed. It feels overly negative taking de Bruyn - although I understand why it's likely.

Would definitely like Olivier to be the one left out - think he will get found out on the sub-continent.

 

[MrPrez]

He was a big loss, also unfortunate when he got injured and Maharaj did so well. Always felt unfair to me that you always have 3 seamers in a team and only 1 spinner...... not much opportunity then.

Yup, and Harmer would have pretty much been guaranteed a spot as our first choice test spinner for almost any other team since Adam imo. (except perhaps when Tahir first became eligble and there was so much hype).

 

[Bahseph]

I'm willing to afford Elgar some leeway to be honest. I'd be more forgiving if he held some catches to be honest!

 

[GRAB]

I can't see how you can leave Shamsi out. He is the best attacking spinner we have. In form on the right pitch I can see him running through a side a lot more than Maharaj, Piedt or any other options. Yes, there is a bigger gulf for wrist spinners from our franchise level to international it seems (because bad balls are far more consistently punished, and perhaps because of the tactics we use with wrist spinners). Glad to see Bjorn Fortuin isn't being talked about, despite having good, but misleading numbers. Has tended to bowl predominantly when wickets suit him (kind of the opposite of Harmer, who due to the Warriors pace attack is often plugging away for long attritional spells.) Maharaj's franchise performance this season saw him drop considerably downwards, but has definitely shown positive signs vs. SL.

Franchise stats (ave, s/r) of all active spinners with at least 15 wickets (batting average in parentheses since for better or worse that is a selection factor with South African spinners):
Tahir DOL 24,7 44,0 (17,4)
Shamsi TIT 25,6 45,3 (5,2)
Muthusamy DOL 27,9 52,1 (33,7)
B Fortuin LIO 28,4 60,5 (32,8)
Maharaj DOL 29,5 61,2 (19,4)
Harmer WAR 32,2 63,4 (21,9)
Piedt COB 32,4 62,9 (20,2)
Linde COB 32,7 69,1 (12,2)
Von Berg TIT 36,5 62,3 (25,0)
Smuts WAR 37,1 65,1 (32,3)
Phangiso LIO 38,0 70,9 (14,8)
Subrayen DOL 41,7 84,4 (9,7)
Leie KNI 44,1 65,9 (8,3)
Ntuli KNI 45,1 70,5 (10,3)
Erlank DOL 56,3 92,1 (27,5)
Elgar TIT 56,8 79,7 (44,1)

 

[SeamUp]

I can't see how you can leave Shamsi out. He is the best attacking spinner we have. In form on the right pitch I can see him running through a side a lot more than Maharaj, Piedt or any other options. Yes, there is a bigger gulf for wrist spinners from our franchise level to international it seems (because bad balls are far more consistently punished, and perhaps because of the tactics we use with wrist spinners). Glad to see Bjorn Fortuin isn't being talked about, despite having good, but misleading numbers. Has tended to bowl predominantly when wickets suit him (kind of the opposite of Harmer, who due to the Warriors pace attack is often plugging away for long attritional spells.) Maharaj's franchise performance this season saw him drop considerably downwards, but has definitely shown positive signs vs. SL.

Franchise stats (ave, s/r) of all active spinners with at least 15 wickets (batting average in parentheses since for better or worse that is a selection factor with South African spinners):
Tahir DOL 24,7 44,0 (17,4)
Shamsi TIT 25,6 45,3 (5,2)
Muthusamy DOL 27,9 52,1 (33,7)
B Fortuin LIO 28,4 60,5 (32,8)
Maharaj DOL 29,5 61,2 (19,4)
Harmer WAR 32,2 63,4 (21,9)
Piedt COB 32,4 62,9 (20,2)
Linde COB 32,7 69,1 (12,2)
Von Berg TIT 36,5 62,3 (25,0)
Smuts WAR 37,1 65,1 (32,3)
Phangiso LIO 38,0 70,9 (14,8)
Subrayen DOL 41,7 84,4 (9,7)
Leie KNI 44,1 65,9 (8,3)
Ntuli KNI 45,1 70,5 (10,3)
Erlank DOL 56,3 92,1 (27,5)
Elgar TIT 56,8 79,7 (44,1)

It just goes to show how tough it is to be a good wrist spinner in test cricket. Tahir couldn't grab his chance. For whatever reasons Shamsi didn't make himself available or he wasn't chose by the Titans for the 4-day stuff. I just think he is so similar to Tahir where they try too many things in their overs and spells.

I think for now with no Harmer it is Maharaj and Piedt. [Progression to come for Fortuin, Linde, Simmonds & even Muthusamy and all are alow left-armers]

 

[SeamUp]

I know it is test cricket time.

But right now we need to find middle order over accelerators in MODC because this will be Dave Miller's hoorah I feel. And ideally we need more than 1 ?

Jonker been and gone. Vilas Kolpak.

Contenders ?

 

[StephenZA]

I know it is test cricket time.

But right now we need to find middle order over accelerators in MODC because this will be Dave Miller's hoorah I feel. And ideally we need more than 1 ?

Jonker been and gone. Vilas Kolpak.

Contenders ?

Hopefully Duminy comes back and is in form... else I can't see anybody. Smuts maybe? We need Frylinck batting at 7/8.

 

[GRAB]

It just goes to show how tough it is to be a good wrist spinner in test cricket. Tahir couldn't grab his chance. For whatever reasons Shamsi didn't make himself available or he wasn't chose by the Titans for the 4-day stuff. I just think he is so similar to Tahir where they try too many things in their overs and spells.

I think for now with no Harmer it is Maharaj and Piedt. [Progression to come for Fortuin, Linde, Simmonds & even Muthusamy and all are alow left-armers]

He played one match and had returns of 7-123.

 

[StephenZA]

With this performance my frustration and annoyance makes me want to drop Elgar, Amla, Bavuma and Faf. Keep Markram, QDK of the top 6. And just bring in the talented youngsters we have (not de Bruyn). I know its not gonna happen, but we have been discussing the weak batting for years now and I just feel the need to rebuild and sort it out. I don't think Gibson will be coach after the WC.

Nothings going to happen though or be discussed at this stage because of the WC, and everything is going to be about the ODI's until that finishes.

 

[Stefan9]

I am undecided about faf. Res I agree with.

 

[Bahseph]

An interesting conversation on Radio 2000, about the regions of which the team originates. Even when we were at our peak as a Test team we had trouble in Durban especially. And that's also because it is sort of an away game for most of the team. With most of them being from the Highveld. Now I'm not using that as an excuse, or a reason for this display, it just got me thinking.

Now back to this game. Surely heads have to roll. StephenZA made a good point in the tour thread about the lack of replacements making a splash domestically. And that is true. But maybe, just maybe, it's time to bite the bullet and take a punt on people we see have potential.

Not interested in seeing Temba in whites again. Or Amla. Both for differing reasons.

 

[Garson007]

Nothings going to happen though or be discussed at this stage because of the WC, and everything is going to be about the ODI's until that finishes.

Which we could always still win. The last Aussie team was / is weak and they managed it and it saved quite a few careers.

 

[StephenZA]

I am undecided about faf. Res I agree with.

Only reservation around Faf is his captaincy because if we lose Elgar I'm not sure if Markram is ready for the responsibility yet. Nobody else I would choose.

 

[Bahseph]

With this performance my frustration and annoyance makes me want to drop Elgar, Amla, Bavuma and Faf. Keep Markram, QDK of the top 6. And just bring in the talented youngsters we have (not de Bruyn). I know its not gonna happen, but we have been discussing the weak batting for years now and I just feel the need to rebuild and sort it out. I don't think Gibson will be coach after the WC.

Nothings going to happen though or be discussed at this stage because of the WC, and everything is going to be about the ODI's until that finishes.

Just what I was thinking! I'm also not sure I'd just drop Faf. And Elgar deserves a little more leeway. But yeah, de Bruyn, Amla and Bavuma can be gone. Although of the three, de Bruyn probably has a chance of making it back if he scores runs domestically. I'm just not going to be convinced of Bavuma. It shows that ABD literally won us two series against strong opposition. He didn't paper of the cracks in the middle order. He WAS the middle order.

 

[StephenZA]

Which we could always still win. The last Aussie team was / is weak and they managed it and it saved quite a few careers.

Unless QDK and Rabada have a blinder in the WC we have no chance of winning. Not enough genuine class through the batting to get us through a WC.