South Africa & Quotas

[Langeveldt]

Shame we couldn't have had an Afrikaaner (de Villiers?) getting in there somewhere.

yeah, or Nel.. Afrikaaner cricket has been absolutely booming, yet there are still more English guys in the national team

 

[TT Boy]

Doing absolutely nothing being keeping the Australian top-order quiet for the most part (would have been virtually without fail if they could catch), something few if any have ever done the last 6 years?

Yes he bowled well in Aus but his performances since then were not particularly impressive and when it mattered in those games he was usually on the end of a hiding from the lower order and tail.

 

[Richard]

And I'll say it again... what would've happened if the catches had been taken?

Probably he'd have bowled at the tail better, and scythed through them.

Yes, he bowled crap against NZ, but he was terribly unfortunate to play only on the flat pitch of that series and miss the juicy ones, while Steyn took his place having been spared the Aussie onslaught while Nel toiled away.

Nel then bowled pretty damn well against India despite being very unlucky with both catches and Umpiring decisions.

 

[TT Boy]

And I'll say it again... what would've happened if the catches had been taken?

Probably he'd have bowled at the tail better, and scythed through them.

Yes, he bowled crap against NZ, but he was terribly unfortunate to play only on the flat pitch of that series and miss the juicy ones, while Steyn took his place having been spared the Aussie onslaught while Nel toiled away.

Nel then bowled pretty damn well against India despite being very unlucky with both catches and Umpiring decisions.

South Africa would have probably won a game (or two) but **** happens and after the catches went down, Nel lost the plot big style.

 

[Richard]

Most bowlers would lose the plot with that many catches going down.

It's unfair to judge any bowler when that many chances are missed - it was an unreasonable number.

As I've said, to suggest that South Africa weren't likely to have beaten Australia handsomely had they been able to catch is far-fetched.

 

[adharcric]

Sorry but that's slightly not true, the coloured's are treated and face far more social discrimination than that of the Black Africans, who have the power, coloureds don't.

It's rather startling that many coloured's have said that since apartheid fell their treatment has not improved and if anything has worsen.

And for the percentage of Blacks who play cricket they get all the opportunities they need, fast tracked into franchise sides, quicker than a white or even a coloured and they value/importance is seemingly grossly overrated especially considering the numbers of Blacks who actually like cricket.

Well, I was ignoring the quota system there and justifying why some sort of system is necessary. I also forgot about the distinction between "black" and "colored" ...

 

[Craig]

Clearly evident in the selections of Morne Morkel and Dale Steyn…

So what about Justin Ontong? Robbie Peterson etc.?

 

[Craig]

Hell, no. Cant wait to leave to be honest.

I feel strongly about the situation because

a) People dont want to know and put their head in the sand (always magnifies my feelings)

b) Its not good for SA cricket with the quotas at all levels and ages cutting the talent available to franchises and the national team.

c) Ive seen too many people negatively affected by it. Children crying because they are told they are not selected because they are white and young pros have their careers take a severe beating due to the opportunities not being there.

d) It is being implimented and backed by more extreme ANC leaders with no interest in cricket or Cricket SAs well being but on points scoring.

Pardon my ignorance but have one of your students in your cricket coaching business been told this?

 

[Goughy]

Pardon my ignorance but have one of your students in your cricket coaching business been told this?

Yes on more than 1 occasion. I even have even talked a Provincial coach/selector and he confirmed 1 incident to me face to face and talked candidly about the process and issues. All coaches know the situation.

It is a common occurance. Not as common as the parents of some white kids think (many think their boy was not selected as a non-white player took their place, but there are so many that think that way there would be a 50 man squad if they were all picked) but still very regular and heart breaking when it happens.

 

[Craig]

Yes on more than 1 occasion. I even have even talked a Provincial coach/selector and he confirmed 1 incident to me face to face and talked candidly about the process and issues. All coaches know the situation.

It is a common occurance. Not as common as the parents of some white kids think (many think their boy was not selected as a non-white player took their place, but there are so many that think that way there would be a 50 man squad if they were all picked) but still very regular and heart breaking when it happens.

Obviously the laws are probably different where you live, but if a similar incident happened here, said player would have every right to go to the nearest anti-discrimination centre (for example it would be the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Department, or the relevant one in Victoria, or New South Wales etc.). Do such laws exist in SA?

You know the thing is flawed when a a non-white athlete (and more then one) speak out against this policy, because otherwise what is the point in working hard and trying to achieve the best from your ability.

 

[TT Boy]

So what about Justin Ontong? Robbie Peterson etc.?

Both we selected to fill a void, one being they didn't have enough coloured cricketers around, so yeah two good instances/examples - but Robbie P’s selection may have been a wee bit premature but being a slow left armer and a guy who can bat and field he was always destined to represent South Africa or appear in a couple of squads due to the poor nature or lack of decent spinning alternatives in South African cricket.

 

[Pratters]

More than a fair point considering Nel under performed for about a year, lost most of his pace and yet was still continually selected whilst doing absolutely nothing to justify his selection. Were was the 'fast tracked' coloureds to replace him?

I was agreeing with David there and I cannot make out whether you are agreeing or disagreeing because you are essentially stating the same point the way I see it. If I misunderstand, do clarify.

 

[viktor]

Right a few points.

-The reason for the poor selections is the issue here not that poor selections are made. When players are picked on race (as in these cases) its hard to have any justification. What is being said by myself, is that the selectors are picking players they do not believe are the best available for political reason. Thats how it is. Anyone can make a selection mistake, it is harder to justify doing it on purpose.

- Ngam had not and still never has taken 5 wickets in an innings in a FC game. 6 years after test debut and 9 years after FC debut. Thats over 40 games. Its a terrible recordHe was not good enough and was fasttracked because of colour.

- There were many good bowlers in SA at the time of Ngams selection. Certainly superior to him at the time. Nel was doing well as a youngster, Elworthy was at the peak of his powers, Willoughby was his consistent and wickettaking best, Nantie Hayward was very quick and dangerous etc. Ngam had done nothing to deserve his place

- It is impossible to compare Kruger and Steyn. Kruger is nearly 7 years older than Steyn and is a journeyman seamer. Steyn was capable of bowling 145 kph + and was the supposed next fast bowling sensation and had a couple of good performances under his belt. I dont doubt that Steyn was picked too early as well but at the time SA's bowling resources were more depleted than 5 years previous.

- Bosman and Petersen failed because they were not good enough. It was obvious and had done nothing to deserve inclusion. The fact that Bosman has gone means another quota player will come in to take his place, play a few games, get dropped etc

Its interesting that you defend Steyn's selection based on potential and at the same time knock Ngam's. From what I saw of Ngam, he seemd a hell of a prospect. I think suffered from major injuries (stress fractures to the back, I think) and may not be the same bowler he was.
Also, I seem to remember Donald had also praisedd Zondeki before he was selected, again, similar to Morkel.

 

[Goughy]

Its interesting that you defend Steyn's selection based on potential and at the same time knock Ngam's. From what I saw of Ngam, he seemd a hell of a prospect. I think suffered from major injuries (stress fractures to the back, I think) and may not be the same bowler he was.
Also, I seem to remember Donald had also praisedd Zondeki before he was selected, again, similar to Morkel.

If you actually read the post that you quoted you will find I said that Steyn was picked too early as well.

Ive been asking around, and I cant find anyone (black or white) who thought Ngam should have been selected when he was. I didnt think Steyn was ready either, but at least he had had a couple of impressive performances leading upto his selection. Ngam had nothing comparable.

I have also been heavily critical of Steyn on these boards.

 

[viktor]

If you actually read the post that you quoted you will find I said that Steyn was picked too early as well.

Ive been asking around, and I cant find anyone (black or white) who thought Ngam should have been selected when he was. I didnt think Steyn was ready either, but at least he had had a couple of impressive performances leading upto his selection. Ngam had nothing comparable.

I have also been heavily critical of Steyn on these boards.

I hope you will forgive me for not following all your postings.
My point about Steyn was that he was picked on potential; I thought Ngam also had potential, hence Ngam to Steyn would be a better comparison. In that respect, Ngam does not seem to have benefitted from the quotas.

 

[Goughy]

I hope you will forgive me for not following all your postings.
My point about Steyn was that he was picked on potential; I thought Ngam also had potential, hence Ngam to Steyn would be a better comparison. In that respect, Ngam does not seem to have benefitted from the quotas.

Nah, not a problem. I see the comparison, but I think whilst there are similarities there are still key differences between Steyn and Ngam.

The standard of competition when Steyn came along was much lower than when Ngam was introduced and Steyn had shown a little more before being picked.

TBH, Neither should have been picked when they were but I think the Steyn selection was slightly more justifiable given the leadup to the test.

 

[Richard]

^^^ You haven't answered Craig's question and it's one I found interesting, too. I'd never really thought about it before.

 

[Goughy]

^^^ You haven't answered Craig's question and it's one I found interesting, too. I'd never really thought about it before.

Which question was that?

Ill give it a go answering it if I can, if it is reposted or quoted.

Ive looked, but Im not sure which question you mean.

 

[Craig]

Obviously the laws are probably different where you live, but if a similar incident happened here, said player would have every right to go to the nearest anti-discrimination centre (for example it would be the Queensland Anti-Discrimination Department, or the relevant one in Victoria, or New South Wales etc.). Do such laws exist in SA?

You know the thing is flawed when a a non-white athlete (and more then one) speak out against this policy, because otherwise what is the point in working hard and trying to achieve the best from your ability.

This one Gough, last post on page 10

 

[Pratters]

If you actually read the post that you quoted you will find I said that Steyn was picked too early as well.

Ive been asking around, and I cant find anyone (black or white) who thought Ngam should have been selected when he was. I didnt think Steyn was ready either, but at least he had had a couple of impressive performances leading upto his selection. Ngam had nothing comparable.

I don't see how comparable performances to Steyn is relevant. Ngam was picked on promise and from all reports, he seemed a very promising talent initially. Cricinfo even now reports on his profile -

Put simply, "Chew" Ngam is a completely natural fast bowler with a smooth run-up and enough pace to make the best batsmen hop around. After two impressive displays against Sri Lanka, everything seemed to be going swimmingly when, along with Makhaya Ntini, he became the first African player to be voted as a national cricketer of the year in 2001.

Impressive performances are not essential to be picked into a side. If you as a selector feel that he is promising enough, you can pick him with even zero performances. How many performances did Wasim Akram have before he played test cricket?

The weak bones meant that he could not carry on really.

Also, you ask to name one person who thought Ngam should have been picked at the time. Well, I can tell you that I was pretty excited about Ngam what now seems ages ago.

Cheers.