• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

South Africa & Quotas

shortpitched713

International Captain
You know, this artificial system of "nationalism" is screwing over so many Australian cricketers. Cricket at the highest level should be just that, the best players playing cricket. Its a travesty that clearly inferior players from Bangladesh, Zimbabwe, England, etc. are getting a chance to play at the highest level while superior Australian cricketers are missing out. Something should be ****ing done about the arbitrary division of our globe into "nations" because its hurting the quality of cricket worldwide.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
There are plenty of aboriginal AFL stars, but you'd be hard pressed to find an aboriginal CEO.
Australian aboriginals seen well represented in League too, but I can't think of any cricketers off the top of my head, unless one counts Dizzy & at (IIRC) 1/16th Aboriginal I think it's a nonsense to. I’m not suggesting sinister forces at work, but it does seem strange.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Australian aboriginals seen well represented in League too, but I can't think of any cricketers off the top of my head, unless one counts Dizzy & at (IIRC) 1/16th Aboriginal I think it's a nonsense to. I’m not suggesting sinister forces at work, but it does seem strange.
Australian aboriginals make up a fraction of the population - the majority of Australians could go literally years without seeing a full-blood

Taken from that perspective, it's not so strange.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Does the whole quota thing make anyone else think of Marx's hypothesis of the dictatorship of the proletariat or is it just me?

Probably just me, but I'll go on. As the ANC was originally Marxist they'd probably appreciate the allusion if no-one else. Basically Uncle Karl was of the belief that the revolution would by necessity be followed by a transitional period where there was a dictatorship controlled by the proletariat. Now essentially, and here you must forgive me for my somewhat broad brush-stokes, I see the end of Apartheid as “the revolution” with the majority population & more specifically the ANC as "the proletariat" & the white population as "the bourgeoisie". Now I'm not for one second suggesting that the ANC is an actual dictatorship, but there's no doubt that they aren't so much encouraging change as kicking its doors in.

This is obviously causing resentment amongst sections of SA's white population, no-one likes being at the sharp end of a historical movement & one can but sympathise with anyone who's overlooked for any position against an obviously inferior candidate. The so-called targets (actually edicts as they apparently will be enforced, come what may) are a somewhat blunt tool used in an attempt to rectify the 40+ years of official apartheid & as long again before that of unofficial means of separate development. To my way of thinking the edicts will have two effects on South African international cricket, one desirable, one not: firstly, players of colour will be represented in meaningful numbers but secondly, this will weaken the South African team. If the edicts are here to stay (& the realpolitik is that they are) the issue is to change things so that the former doesn’t necessarily mean the latter.

Now happily in South Africa there is no official discrimination on grounds of colour but, as I think saggers observed, economics will discriminate almost as effectively as official policy. As I’m sure most of us are aware cricket can be an expensive game to play, so therefore it’s of little surprise that the affluent middle-class are over-represented in the sport. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that exposure to proper coaching & equipment leads to better players (if it didn’t all coaches & sports manufacturers would be buggered, frankly) so it’s pretty easy to see that a 13-year-old who has attended a prep-school is likely to be a better cricketer than one who grew up in a township. Now, with SA’s history being what it is, wealth is still largely concentrated amongst the white population who can therefore afford to send junior to the better schools. If this situation remains unchecked whites will continue to be over represented in any South African team selected on merit alone.

With the quotas/targets/edicts in place non-whites will be represented tho, I think we’re all reasonable enough fellows to agree this is desirable, the challenge for any working in South African cricket at any level is produce non-white cricketers of sufficient quality to make them redundant. However I would not begin to presume to have a simple answer for this brain-scratcher.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Australian aboriginals make up a fraction of the population - the majority of Australians could go literally years without seeing a full-blood

Taken from that perspective, it's not so strange.
Fair enough, I just meant that there's a fair few Aboriginals playing League (I dunno anything about AFL), off the top of my head there's Matt Sing, Matt Bowen, Greg Inglis, Preston Campbell, Jonathan Thurston & Milton Thaiday, just seems peculiar there's none playing cricket at the top level.

Although I guess with 15/16 NRL teams as opposed to 6 Pura Cup teams it's perhaps not so unusual really.
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Fair enough, I just meant that there's a fair few Aboriginals playing League (I dunno anything about AFL), off the top of my head there's Matt Sing, Matt Bowen, Greg Inglis, Preston Campbell, Jonathan Thurston & Milton Thaiday, just seems peculiar there's none playing cricket at the top level.

Although I guess with 15/16 NRL teams as opposed to 6 Pura Cup teams it's perhaps not so unusual really.
8% of professional AFL players are of aboriginal decent
 

adharcric

International Coach
Pasag, SS and Brumby are spot on IMO. The average black youth in SA remains disadvantaged even today as a result of discriminating policies in the past. The key is to provide an equal opportunity to everyone and this should be achieved in the realm of education. The aim should be to place everyone on a level ground by the time of "selection", be it selection in a competitive cricket team, getting an entry-level job or getting a promotion to a high-level position. In short, disadvantaged youth should be offered scholarships, coaching and exposure; they should not be presented gifts at the highest level. Education is a universal right but a job (including a place in the national cricket team) should be earned on merit. There should always be room for someone to get a better education (even in cricket) without someone else having to suffer.

From what I understand, the current quota system in South Africa fails to provide an equal opportunity. Colored cricketers are given artificial opportunities when they haven't deserved them; they are found out and replaced by another batch of undercooked black cricketers. Meanwhile, white cricketers who have earned a place on merit are discouraged from pursuing their passion. In short, neither black nor white cricketers receive a genuine opportunity. On a separate note, these prescriptions (quotas) shouldn't be adhered to strictly. For example, a student from a "disadvantaged background" is not necessarily "disadvanaged"; I've seen plenty of hispanic and black students over here get preferential treatment even though they've had a superb education and come from an affluent family. Let's not forget that the objective is to give everyone an equal opportunity, not to give disadavantaged backgrounds revenge for past oppression.
 
Last edited:

vic_orthdox

Global Moderator
I've played against a few players of Aboriginal descent who represented Northern Territory at underage level cricket. Not sure what that adds to the convo, but whatever.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Fair enough, I just meant that there's a fair few Aboriginals playing League (I dunno anything about AFL), off the top of my head there's Matt Sing, Matt Bowen, Greg Inglis, Preston Campbell, Jonathan Thurston & Milton Thaiday, just seems peculiar there's none playing cricket at the top level.

Although I guess with 15/16 NRL teams as opposed to 6 Pura Cup teams it's perhaps not so unusual really.
As social said, it's not entirely comparable because aboriginals make up such a tiny percentage of the population here. The may be sinister forces at work with selection issues in cricket, but really I think it's mostly because cricket isn't especially popular with aboriginals, while the football codes are.
 

Langeveldt

Soutie
On a side note, we've had Shaun Pollock (Anglo) pick up his man of the series award in the last match, Makhaya Ntini (Xhosa) has just taken his 16th five for, Hashim Amla (Indian) is currently on 70 odd, and batting with him Ashwell Prince (Cape Coloured) averaging well over 40 in test cricket...

So while the future according to Goughy is a grim one, I think the present leaves us with cause for quiet optimism?
 

social

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
On a side note, we've had Shaun Pollock (Anglo) pick up his man of the series award in the last match, Makhaya Ntini (Xhosa) has just taken his 16th five for, Hashim Amla (Indian) is currently on 70 odd, and batting with him Ashwell Prince (Cape Coloured) averaging well over 40 in test cricket...

So while the future according to Goughy is a grim one, I think the present leaves us with cause for quiet optimism?
Especially if your Pakistani :laugh:
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Pasag, SS and Brumby are spot on IMO. The average black youth in SA remains disadvantaged even today as a result of discriminating policies in the past. The key is to provide an equal opportunity to everyone and this should be achieved in the realm of education. The aim should be to place everyone on a level ground by the time of "selection", be it selection in a competitive cricket team, getting an entry-level job or getting a promotion to a high-level position. In short, disadvantaged youth should be offered scholarships, coaching and exposure; they should not be presented gifts at the highest level. Education is a universal right but a job (including a place in the national cricket team) should be earned on merit. There should always be room for someone to get a better education (even in cricket) without someone else having to suffer.

From what I understand, the current quota system in South Africa fails to provide an equal opportunity. Colored cricketers are given artificial opportunities when they haven't deserved them; they are found out and replaced by another batch of undercooked black cricketers. Meanwhile, white cricketers who have earned a place on merit are discouraged from pursuing their passion. In short, neither black nor white cricketers receive a genuine opportunity. On a separate note, these prescriptions (quotas) shouldn't be adhered to strictly. For example, a student from a "disadvantaged background" is not necessarily "disadvanaged"; I've seen plenty of hispanic and black students over here get preferential treatment even though they've had a superb education and come from an affluent family. Let's not forget that the objective is to give everyone an equal opportunity, not to give disadavantaged backgrounds revenge for past oppression.
Sorry but that's slightly not true, the coloured's are treated and face far more social discrimination than that of the Black Africans, who have the power, coloureds don't.

It's rather startling that many coloured's have said that since apartheid fell their treatment has not improved and if anything has worsen.

And for the percentage of Blacks who play cricket they get all the opportunities they need, fast tracked into franchise sides, quicker than a white or even a coloured and they value/importance is seemingly grossly overrated especially considering the numbers of Blacks who actually like cricket.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
For all the fuss about the non-whites who supposedly didn't deserve selection, there's been a fair few whites who've been thoroughly moderate as well, so I'm not 100% convinced about all these deserving candidates who never got a look in. Even now, if Nel is one of the best quicks available to SA, then standards really can't be that high.

Without denying the existance of quotas, which would be plain daft, the word does get overused: i.e. any nonwhite who doesn't immediately perform like Ponting or McGrath. Prince is a good case in point - regularly rubbished by one or two guys, but pretty crucial to the side now.
Yeah, well put. I made a post earlier on the topic on another thread a few months ago which you agreed to (I think on similar lines). It is not as big an issue as it is made out to be where I am concerned.
 

TT Boy

Hall of Fame Member
Yeah, well put. I made a post earlier on the topic on another thread a few months ago which you agreed to (I think on similar lines). It is not as big an issue as it is made out to be where I am concerned.
More than a fair point considering Nel under performed for about a year, lost most of his pace and yet was still continually selected whilst doing absolutely nothing to justify his selection. Were was the 'fast tracked' coloureds to replace him? 8-)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
On a side note, we've had Shaun Pollock (Anglo) pick up his man of the series award in the last match, Makhaya Ntini (Xhosa) has just taken his 16th five for, Hashim Amla (Indian) is currently on 70 odd, and batting with him Ashwell Prince (Cape Coloured) averaging well over 40 in test cricket...

So while the future according to Goughy is a grim one, I think the present leaves us with cause for quiet optimism?
Shame we couldn't have had an Afrikaaner (de Villiers?) getting in there somewhere.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
More than a fair point considering Nel under performed for about a year, lost most of his pace and yet was still continually selected whilst doing absolutely nothing to justify his selection. Were was the 'fast tracked' coloureds to replace him? 8-)
Doing absolutely nothing being keeping the Australian top-order quiet for the most part (would have been virtually without fail if they could catch), something few if any have ever done the last 6 years?
 

Top