Sobers rates Gavaskar as the greatest batsman

[JBH001]

Actually, it was SJS who did the research work on that one. Sunny's centuries and overall average against the WI is weighted by a series or two where he feasted on average to poor attacks. In the other series against what we traditionally think of as the great WI attack (i.e. 2 - 3 all time great fast bowlers) he was a lot more vulnerable. Frankly I dont, like SJS, see this as detracting from Sunny's status as an all-time great batsman. An all time great batsman may be able to handle one all time bowler, but add a second, and then a third or a couple of very good back ups, and things become exponentially harder. There is literally no rest for the batsman - especially if you are an opener. (After all, I dont think even Bradman faced more than one at any one time either.)

SJS may want to reproduce his old post if he is keen, or someone may want to hunt it up.

 

[Sir Alex]

Had a bad series in 74-75 and one in 82-83. Yet averaged 27 and 30 in those "bad series".

Against such an attack how many openers averaged even that I am not sure.

 

[SJS]

After reading your fantastic post.. It seems like u have watched that match.. So inform us what exactly was going on on that match? 36 of 174 balls... and not only Gavasker but B.Patal scoring 16 of 57 balls while chasing a target of over 300.. sounds very fishy..

I did not watch the match but I do agree that it stinks.

I have a theory about it but remember its only a theory

Gavaskar was clearly not happy at Venkat being appointed the captain and this was his way of ****ing a snook at the authorities. He was telling them "okay now tell me what you want to do about it. Drop me if you can."

I repeat it is just a theory.

 

[King Pietersen]

I never thought I'd find myself saying this, but can you give us some stats on that please Ikki? Seriously.

I checked the stats a little while back and he averaged 42 against them in the West Indies, and 50.5 in India. Still very impressive stats I'd say. That 50.5 average is boosted by an innings of 236* on a flat pitch, where he batted 4 too, but even so, they're still very admirable figures.

 

[SJS]

Actually, it was SJS who did the research work on that one. Sunny's centuries and overall average against the WI is weighted by a series or two where he feasted on average to poor attacks. In the other series against what we traditionally think of as the great WI attack (i.e. 2 - 3 all time great fast bowlers) he was a lot more vulnerable. Frankly I dont, like SJS, see this as detracting from Sunny's status as an all-time great batsman. An all time great batsman may be able to handle one all time bowler, but add a second, and then a third or a couple of very good back ups, and things become exponentially harder. There is literally no rest for the batsman - especially if you are an opener. (After all, I dont think even Bradman faced more than one at any one time either.)

SJS may want to reproduce his old post if he is keen, or someone may want to hunt it up.

Sure. No problem whatsoever. Here it is.

(By the way, I do not think this detracts from his status as a great opening batsman but that post was written to put in perspective the impression carried by the majority that Gavaskar's great record against West Indies and his over all record, particularly away from home, is phenomenal because he faced the mightiest fast bowling during the 70's and 80's. I think and firmly believe that even with our heroes - and Gavaskar the batsman is a big hero of mine- we can and should be objective. The problem is that for most people everything is just black and white and so when I wrote this post below, people assumed I was running down Gavskar and when I wrote an article on his 60th birthday or even the post on this thread about Sobers opinion about him, people think it means I too consider him the greatest batsman since Bradman. Both are factually incorrect assumptions but thats how people want to believe. The grey shades that represent most of what we see around us dont seem to concern most people. )

Gavaskar's career is a very interesting one. Before starting one has to state that he is one of the finest opening batsmen of all time but that should not prevent us from looking at his weaknesses. I have been fortunate enough to see him from his University days till the end of his great career. He was a batsman with a fabulous technique, a great idea of where his off stump was and one who could play all the strokes in the game though he gave up the hook very early in his test career.

Having said that, he did show a slightly reduced appetite for runs when faced by the real fast bowlers who also moved the ball. Pure speed did not trouble Gavaskar but movement coupled with sheer speed did find this great batsman at a level below his best - considerably his best I would say.

To analyse his career its not enough to talk of his record against the West Indies. Its much better to talk of his record away from the sub continent where the conditions did not often favour such bowling - speed and sharp movement - though there were the occasional exceptions to this. So lets look at how he fared in Australia, New Zealand, England AND West Indies.

Gavaskar in Australia

Gavaskar played three series in Australia.

• 1977-78 (5 tests)
• 1980-81 (3 tests)
• 1985-86 (3 tests)

He has a great overall record - or so it appears - 920 runs in 11 tests at 51.11 with 5 centuries. Breaking up the series and looking at each bowling attack and Gavaskar's performance against each shows an interesting trend.

In the first series, the Packer series took away almost the entire Australian regular team and the attack Gavaskar faced had only Thomson of any class whatsoever. The bowlers who assisted Thommo with the new ball during this series were :

• Wayne Clarke - who was making his debut
• JB Gannon - who was making his debut never to play again
• IW Callen - who was making his debut never to play again

Gavaskar's 450 runs at 50 each do not appear all that great in the light of this attack. He scored three centuries in the five tests.

In the last series in 1985-86, McDermott (a reasonable bowler) was assisted by :

1. DR Gilbert - who had made his debut earlier that year
2. Bruce Reid - making his debut and
3. Merv Hughes - making his debut !!

Gavaskar broke-in a lot of debutants down under

He averaged 117 plus in the three tests he played in this series.

Thus in these two series with five debutants and another near-debutant, Gavaskar scored 802 runs in 8 tests with five hundreds ! Great.

The series in the middle - 1980-81 - was the only time Gavaskar faced Dennis Lillee in a test match although they both made their debut in the 1970-71 season and Gavaskar outlasted Lillee by three years !

In this series, Lillee was assisted by Lenny Pascoe and Rodney Hogg. Gavaskar scored a fighting 70 in the last innings of this three test series in a partnership of 165 for the first wicket with Chetan Chauhan to set up Australia a mere 142 to win the series 2-0. Kapil rocked Australia with 5 for 28 for India to win the match by an amazing 59 runs and draw the series.

Gavaskar, before that 70, had scores of 0. 10. 23. 5 and 10. He averaged 19.67 for the series.

You cant help but wonder how he would have fared had he faced Lillee more often. Maybe he would have come out on top maybe not ...

Gavaskar in NewZealand

Gavaskar played just two series in NewZealand.

• 1975-76 - 3 tests - 266 runs at 66.5
• 1980-81 - 3 tests - 126 runs at 25.2

Not bad you could say. One good series one bad and an overall average of 43.6 . But who was the best NewZealand bowler of the day ? Richard Hadlee - right.

Hadlee missed the first test of the first series. Gavaskar scored 116 and 35 not out. The young Hadlee played the next two games and Gavaskar got 22, 71, and 22.

In the next series, Hadlee , now assisted by Lance Cairns played all the three tests and Gavaskar scored 23, 12, 53, 5 and 33 !

It is strange. 151 for once out in one game and an average of 30 in the next five and Hadlee happens to be a conspicuous difference between the two sets of games.

Gavaskar in West Indies.

Gavaskar played three series in the Carribean.

• 1970-71 (4 tests) 774 runs at 154 +
• 1975-76 (4 tests) 390 runs at 55.7
• 1982-83 (5 tests) 240 runs at 30

The bowling attack of Gavaskar's debut series need not be discussed. Its well known that an ageing Sobers - as a bowler far from his best - was probably the better bowler in the side. But what of the other two series.

In the second series. Andy Roberts was available only for two games, Holding, who bowled pretty well, was making his debut (not again) and Brendon Julien and Wayne Daniell brought up the rear. It was a reasonable attack though not a fearsome one and nowhere near the great West Indian attacks we talk of with awe. Gavaskar did well averaging in the mid fifties. This was not an attack to bother this great batsman.

The third series saw Gavasker faced with the full fury of the Windies pace battery. Holding, Roberts, Garner and Marshall were available right through the series.

Gavaskar scored a superb 147 not out in the middle of the series - the 3rd test which was drawn without even a single innings of either side being completed. However, on either side of this century Gavaskar had scores of 20, 0, 1, 32, 2, 19, 18, 1. Clearly the fearsome foursome had the measure of our great little master.

Gavaskar in England

Gavaskar toured England five times - more than any other country. Except for 1979, his record was far from great. The 1979 tour saw Gavaskar in great touch and he played probably the finest innings an Indian has played in England ever. He scored 542 runs on this tour at 77.4 with four fifties and a magnificient 221. In the other four series he scored :-

• 1971 - 3 tests - 144 runs at 24 - 1 fifty
• 1974 - 3 tests - 217 runs at 36.2 - 1 fifty and 1 hundred
• 1982 - 3 tests - 74 runs at 24.7 each - no fifty
• 1986 - 3 tests - 175 runs at 29.2 each - 1 fifty

Not a great record.

The bowlers for these series were mainly

- Snow & Price,
- Old, Arnold & Hendricks,
- Willis & Botham and
- Dilley & Foster (with Pringle for company).​

Well Gavaskar had his problems lets say and leave it at that.

---------------- Then in answer to a question asked by a poster I wrote....

Although one doesn't always fall to the bowler who is troubling him which is why we say so-and-so benefitted ecause a great bowler was bowling at the other end, here are the figures you ask for.

1980-81 - Australia

- New ball bowlers - Lillee, Pascoe and Hogg
- Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of his six innings in the series - Lillee (2), Pascoe (3) and Hogg (1)​

1975-76 and 1980-81 - NZL

- Of the eight innings in which he face Hadlee he fell to him twice. Falling to Snedden twice, Lance Cairns once and Dayle Hadlee once.​

1982-83 - West Indies

- New Ball Bowlers - Holding, Marshall, Garner, Roberts
- Of his 8 didmissals in the series, Gavaskar fell to one or the other of these bowlers in seven innings and to another fast bowler, Winston Davis in the 8th.
- Holding (3), Marshall (2), Garner (2)​

I forgot England tours. Here are the four tours where he did not do well.

- Year : 1971
- Main Bowlers : Snow and Price​

Gavaskar fell to them four times out of six innings, twice each

- Year : 1974
- Main Bowers : Arnold, Chris Old and Hendrick​

Gavaskar fell to one or the other of them in each of the five innings he was dismissed by bowlers. Old (3), Arnold (2)

- Year : 1982
- Main Bowlers : Botham and Willis​

Gavaskar fell to them in each of the three innings he played . Willis (2), Botham (1)

- Year : 1986
- Main Bowlers : Dilley, Foster and Pringle*​

Gavaskar fell to them five times in six innings the other time being his old 'friend' from England's tour of India, John Lever. Dilley (2), Foster (1), Pringle (2)

*Note: Pringle wasn't a frontline bowler but did very well in this series picking up 13 wickets in just two tests at very little cost.

I find it interesting to see how Gavaskar seemed to have trouble with those who made the ball come in as well as leave him. He was very good at letting the out swing go. We used to marvel at how he would let go deliveries pitching on the stumps and raise his bat and watch the ball pass just outside his off stump. He seemed to be flirting with danger but he knew exactly where his off stump was and where that ball was going. But if he got a bowler who made them come in as well as leave him, he had loads of problems.

Balls coming in and towards his middle and leg stump he had no problem and could keep clipping them off his toes from to mid-wicket to fine leg for days. But let the ball come in from outside the off stump and if it wasn't short enough he would have trouble.

Sometimes because it came in and had him leg before but more often when it didn't and he played at it not knowing it wasn't coming back.

One of the most frustrating things of watching Gavaskar bat was to see him give a master class and then suddenly touch one to the keeper or the slips. This from one who left literally hundreds of deliveries withing millimeters of his off stump.

His whole batting was built around leaving alone good deliveries if he could (or defending them if he couldn't) and punishing every lose delivery. His patience was phenomenal and his vigil (the wait for the loose delivery) never wavered. For someone who did not appear of an aggressive bent at the crease, Gavaskar was one of the most ruthless punishers of the bad delivery. He almost never missed it.

I strongly suspect that bowlers who troubled him with sharp and late inward movement, coupled with one that goes through or moves away off the seam, completely upset his normal game by making him unsure of which ball to leave.

But if he just brought the ball in and not much else, Gavaskar wasn't troubled.

It was fascinating to see how John Lever scythed through the Indian batting in India in 1976-77 , taking 26 wickets at a ridiculous 14.62 runs each with his massive inswing. While Lever was running through the Indian batting he did not get gavaskar too often. Gavaskar was having a modest home series - 394 runs in ten completed innings with one hundred and one fifty and an average approaching 40. However Lever got him only twice while Underwood took him out six times.

Gavaskar did not dominate Lever and was very watchful playing him but he did not get out to the new ball that often getting starts on most occasions with innings of 38 (140 balls), 71 (215), 18 (50), 39 (135), 24 (66), 50 (82), 108 (219), 42(103).

Thats a lot of deliveries. He was also becoming more aggresive towards the end of the series as his strike rate shows​

.

 

[fredfertang]

I did not watch the match but I do agree that it stinks.

I have a theory about it but remember its only a theory

Gavaskar was clearly not happy at Venkat being appointed the captain and this was his way of ****ing a snook at the authorities. He was telling them "okay now tell me what you want to do about it. Drop me if you can."

I repeat it is just a theory.

The other, less discreditable theory, that I am aware of is that he objected to Bedi being dropped and India's resultant bowling attack of Venkat and his negative off spin and the negative medium pace of Madan Lal, Solkar, Abid Ali, Ghavri and Amarnath - he thought India should play "proper" cricket

The Indian manager gave this rather odd press release afterwards

"This is not the way Gavaskar should have played it, and I do not personally agree with his tactics. But he felt that against such a big England total he would get in some batting practice on a good wicket against a good attack, He was told he should have scored faster. It's a great disappointment to us but he will not be disciplined."

Gavaskar has written a few books - has he not said anything?

 

[SJS]

The other, less discreditable theory, that I am aware of is that he objected to Bedi being dropped and India's resultant bowling attack of Venkat and his negative off spin and the negative medium pace of Madan Lal, Solkar, Abid Ali, Ghavri and Amarnath - he thought India should play "proper" cricket

The Indian manager gave this rather odd press release afterwards

"This is not the way Gavaskar should have played it, and I do not personally agree with his tactics. But he felt that against such a big England total he would get in some batting practice on a good wicket against a good attack, He was told he should have scored faster. It's a great disappointment to us but he will not be disciplined."

Gavaskar has written a few books - has he not said anything?

Gavaskar prefers to talk of that innings in a very odd manner. He maintains that he tried his best to score faster but it just did not seem to work. Somehow all his stroke play was 'paralysed' (not his word). He also claims that he even tried to throw away his wicket but even that did not work !!

read in that what you want

 

[fredfertang]

Gavaskar prefers to talk of that innings in a very odd manner. He maintains that he tried his best to score faster but it just did not seem to work. Somehow all his stroke play was 'paralysed' (not his word). He also claims that he even tried to throw away his wicket but even that did not work !!

read in that what you want

Rather supports your theory

 

[SJS]

Rather supports your theory

I think so too.

 

[Sir Alex]

He also termed it as the lowest point in his career. But never really justified (it can't be justified really!) that innings.

 

[Sir Alex]

I checked the stats a little while back and he averaged 42 against them in the West Indies, and 50.5 in India. Still very impressive stats I'd say. That 50.5 average is boosted by an innings of 236* on a flat pitch, where he batted 4 too, but even so, they're still very admirable figures.

West Indies batted first on that pitch and were allout for 313. (They were 232-7 at one stage) with Kapil and Binny sharing 5 wickets among themselves.

In reply India were tottering at 0-2 and subsequently 92-5, yet with help from lower order Gavaskar played a herculean effort to lift India to 451-8 which is just incredible. The second highest score in that innings was 72 from Shastri.

Also, I agree Gavaskar batted at No.4. But India lost their first 2 wickets at a grand total of zero runs. So in effect it was like opening.

http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/63355.html

I'd rate as one of his best innings ever considering it came against Marshall, Holding, Davis and Roberts at their prime and when India were under serious pressure.

 

[Sanz]

Also, I agree Gavaskar batted at No.4. But India lost their first 2 wickets at a grand total of zero runs. So in effect it was like opening..

I think there is a very famous Sledging incident related to that inning. After Sunny walked in to bat at score @no 4 and score 0/2, Great King suppsoed to have sledged Sunny by saying..

"Maan it don't matter where you come in to bat, the score is still Zero"

 

[Sanz]

I checked the stats a little while back and he averaged 42 against them in the West Indies, and 50.5 in India. Still very impressive stats I'd say. That 50.5 average is boosted by an innings of 236* on a flat pitch, where he batted 4 too, but even so, they're still very admirable figures.

You speak as if 236* was scored by someone else and as if scoring that many runs on (even if one considers it a flat pitch which it certainly wasn't) is piece of cake.

Gavaskar record against WI when at least one of Marshall, Roberts, Garner, Holding played is as good as his overall record.

 

[Sanz]

Gavaskar prefers to talk of that innings in a very odd manner. He maintains that he tried his best to score faster but it just did not seem to work. Somehow all his stroke play was 'paralysed' (not his word). He also claims that he even tried to throw away his wicket but even that did not work !!

I think there were some catches dropped :-

"As if the fate had already designed to spoil the beginning of the extravaganza, and bore the spectators to death, three simple chances that Gavaskar offered were floored by the English fielders. "

When Gavaskar mocked at one-day cricket

Also If one believes the man himself, he was out @ 0 but did not walk.

He also revealed that he had actually been caught behind off the second ball of the innings, and admitted he wished he had walked. "I keep tossing and turning around about it now. "I asked myself, 'Why the hell did I not walk the second ball?. I was caught behind and would have been out for zero. But nobody appealed. I had flashed outside the off stump ... it was such just such a faint nick that nobody appealed. The bowler went 'ah' and the keeper, Alan Knott, who was standing some way back, did the same. There was no real appeal, no proper 'how's that?'. That little moment of hesitation got me so much flak all these years."

Gavaskar's one-day bore | Regulars | Cricinfo Magazine | Cricinfo.com

 

[duffer]

I did not watch the match but I do agree that it stinks.

I have a theory about it but remember its only a theory

Gavaskar was clearly not happy at Venkat being appointed the captain and this was his way of ****ing a snook at the authorities. He was telling them "okay now tell me what you want to do about it. Drop me if you can."

I repeat it is just a theory.

Have heard a lot about Venkat not getting along with the other spinners in the side but never about any rivalry with Sunil. Interesting enough theory though.

 

[Ikki]

I never thought I'd find myself saying this, but can you give us some stats on that please Ikki? Seriously.

I can, but I think there is a better post by SJS himself which breaks this down. Against the very best attacks he played few times and ended up averaging ~40 IIRC. His record against the great Aussie attack is also not great - only played Lillee in one series IIRC and failed. As I say, I tend to put Gavaskar below the all-time greats that are probably a candidate for #2 after The Don. Great opener, great record still. Although I refrain from really putting him in contention in my own all-time XIs, just not the kind of approach I appreciate - I would rather have Sehwag amongst his countrymen.

 

[Sanz]

As I say, I tend to put Gavaskar below the all-time greats that are probably a candidate for #2 after The Don. Great opener, great record still. Although I refrain from really putting him in contention in my own all-time XIs, just not the kind of approach I appreciate - I would rather have Sehwag amongst his countrymen.

Just want to make sure that You would have Sehwag over Gavaskar in your team, right ?

 

[Ikki]

Just want to make sure that You would have Sehwag over Gavaskar in your team, right ?

Yes, my opinion. I much rather an opener who takes the game to the opposition than one clinging on for dear life.

 

[Sanz]

Have heard a lot about Venkat not getting along with the other spinners in the side but never about any rivalry with Sunil. Interesting enough theory though.

Well that was a theory started by Tony Lewis and it has been stated, reproduced so many times that it has kind of become the most accepted explanation. It could be right or wrong, one may never know.

And that's the thing with Sunny, you will never know why he did that and he will never tell you why did that. This is why there are so many folks , although admire his cricket, dislike Sunny.

 

[Sanz]

Yes, my opinion. I much rather an opener who takes the game to the opposition than one clinging on for dear life.

Of Course it is your opinion and I respect that. But what I object is the part in bold. That is an accusation which is simply not true.