Simon Jones - International Failure?

[badgerhair]

Originally Posted by badgerhair
Would you care to explain why his five-fer in the Caribbean was not an example of him doing well in Test cricket?

Would you care to explain his average of well into the 30's in Test cricket?

I realise you're pulling my plonker, because no-one could be daft enough to mount the career averages after a tiny number of matches line at me and really expect to be taken seriously, but still....

I assume you're similarly prepared to explain the significance of his career average, given that it's what Harmison and Malcolm had at the same stage of their careers, what Anderson currently has, and is much better than what Caddick or Flintoff had at the same stage. Caddick had yet to bowl at Lara getting a world record score - Jones's average was under 26 before he ran into that particular brick wall; and Flintoff's stats remain unimpressive, so you can also explain why you think Freddie's got no chance of becoming a Test-class bowler either.

At this stage of a career, averages mean about half a smidgeon of less than nothing in terms of predicting future performance. Glenn McGrath was still averaging over 40 at this stage of his career, and he turned out quite well in the end.

Jones has produced four or five spells of very good Test bowling, and a great deal more spells of not-very-good or bad.

We'd agree, I think, that he needs to produce many more good spells to become a quality Test bowler.

Where it appears we may differ is that I think the good spells so far are promising enough to make me think that it's quite likely he will produce many more, whereas you seem to prefer to look at the bad ones and take those as the measure of his likely class.

Time will tell whose expectations are most in line with what transpires.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Tom Halsey]

I realise you're pulling my plonker, because no-one could be daft enough to mount the career averages after a tiny number of matches line at me and really expect to be taken seriously, but still....

But you had previously done exactly the same thing, as you were saying he was good because of 1 5-fer...

 

[Tom Halsey]

Think about it for a while.

OK, thought about it, I'm still a confused Essex boy. What does that mean?

 

[badgerhair]

Originally Posted by badgerhair
I realise you're pulling my plonker, because no-one could be daft enough to mount the career averages after a tiny number of matches line at me and really expect to be taken seriously, but still....

But you had previously done exactly the same thing, as you were saying he was good because of 1 5-fer...

You're going to be able to show me where I said that, aren't you?

Though don't try bringing up the post in which I replied to the assertion that he had *never* done well in any form of cricket by pointing out one instance which seemed to me to prove that the sweeping generalisation was factually incorrect, because there was no general implication in that post. You, on the other hand, appear to be using a meaningless figure to justify a sweeping conclusion.

Nowhere in this thread have I said Jones is "good", unless you consider

Jones has reached about the level which Harmison had a year or so ago, which is about the same level as Best and Edwards. We know they can occasionally bowl well as well as fast. Best and Jones both have attitude and enthusiasm. They all need another year or so before we'll really have an idea whether they're going to be Test class on a regular basis.

to be an assertion that Jones is "good".

If you want to argue with what I say, try arguing with what I've actually said rather than some construction that you have independently decided to put on my words even though there is nothing to indicate that I meant what you are attempting to represent as being my position.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[marc71178]

Well my only and logical assumption is that he is worried about getting injured again.

If he's fully fit and worried about England than he has the mental strength and spine of a jellied eel.

 

[marc71178]

Think about it for a while.

You have to remember he is a poor little Essex schoolboy - he can't do such complex things as thinking!

 

[marc71178]

i really dont understand how anyone can back the english selections after they've continually picked the fearsome foursome for the ODIs and picked rikki clarke for the test series in the carribean despite doing absolutely nothing in his ODI career to date.

I thought we were talking about the Test selections, which have been spot on.

At the time Clarke was the man in possession, so to drop him from the squad would've been a tad harsh when nobody else had done anything since the initial winter squad selection to justofy being picked.

Since then others have had made their claims and jumped ahead of him.

 

[Tom Halsey]

You're going to be able to show me where I said that, aren't you?

Sorry, just realized I misread your post.

Still, in the post that I originally quoted, you stated that Jones bowled 'well' in that particular innings. A much more accurate description would be that he bowled about 2 good balls.

He is never going to get anyone out by bounce, because he is too short. He is never going to get anyone out by pace, because, unfortunately, due to his Australia injury, he is no longer above 90 m.p.h. very consistantly. Until he realizes he needs to pitch the flipping thing up, he's as harmless as Nasser Hussain. Believe it or not, when he pitches it up, and gets reverse, he is handy. But I have only seen him do that a handful of times, and the rest of his wickets have mostly been poor shots, or brilliant catches when the ball was speeding to the boundary, or something.

That said, I admit that if he realizes he needs to pitch it up, he could yet proove handy.

 

[Tom Halsey]

You have to remember he is a poor little Essex schoolboy - he can't do such complex things as thinking!

PY was a handful of years ago, too.

 

[badgerhair]

Believe it or not, when he pitches it up, and gets reverse, he is handy. But I have only seen him do that a handful of times, and the rest of his wickets have mostly been poor shots, or brilliant catches when the ball was speeding to the boundary, or something.

That said, I admit that if he realizes he needs to pitch it up, he could yet proove handy.

We might differ on exactly which occasions, but neither of us believes that he has been a good Test bowler on more than a handful of them.

If the original assertion that he had *never* done anything - after eight games now - were true, then it would probably be time to say "bye-bye and don't hold your breath waiting for another call".

Since it's not true, whether it's worth persisting with him depends on an assessment of the possible payoffs and the likely investment necessary. He's a raw young bowler, who will inevitably become steadier and less wild as time goes on. Contrast with, say, Saggers or Johnson who have been around for donkeys' years and consequently haven't got many rough edges to smooth off now. If he manages to bowl at the level of his best performances on a regular basis, the payoff will be huge indeed because he offers something really special with an old ball which England sorely lack, whereas Saggers or Johnson repeating their best form simply gives us more Hoggardiana, and we've already got that.

Since there's no-one else bashing down the door of the selectors' meeting room demanding inclusion and the potential benefit is so large, keeping him in the side for several more matches seems to me to be pretty much a no-brainer. I'd guess we'll know by Christmas whether there is likely to be anything more than we've already had.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Langeveldt]

Tudor - a heartless, whinging, arrogant but fairly talented. Thanks but no thanks..

I can't for the live of me think why Alex Tudor is a sissy just because he gets injured a lot... I don't see why a injury riddled player like Richard Johnson, Caddick or Gough, or Mfuneko Ngam should be seen in any different light from Tudes...

 

[marc71178]

Simple, they don't give up trying.

 

[badgerhair]

I can't for the live of me think why Alex Tudor is a sissy just because he gets injured a lot... I don't see why a injury riddled player like Richard Johnson, Caddick or Gough, or Mfuneko Ngam should be seen in any different light from Tudes...

He's called a sissy because he kept crying off injured and the doctors weren't finding anything (much) wrong with him, a reputation which has stuck to him like a leech.

Then he went to the Academy, where they discovered that he had a medical condition which was not easy to spot because it was exacerbated by his bowling action and subsided fairly quickly, but it would necessitate a change of action plus a whole new set of exercises. Trouble was, the new action rendered him almost totally ineffective, and so he injures himself every time he tries some variation to give himself some zip.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[Langeveldt]

Simple, they don't give up trying.

Yet Tudor is playing for Surrey?! Don't think he would be back if he wasn't trying...

 

[marc71178]

There's a dfference between turning up and trying.

 

[Craig]

he didnt' do a very gd job off ducking out of the challenge thrown down by brett lee!!

neway,tudor is a very gd talent...needs more opportunity and luck...

Well if you go and duck without your eye on the ball (excuse the pun), in all due respect, you deserve to be hit. It isn't as though he is Chris Martin with the bat, he has a highest Test score of 99 * and one or two FC 100s.

 

[wpdavid]

He's called a sissy because he kept crying off injured and the doctors weren't finding anything (much) wrong with him, a reputation which has stuck to him like a leech.

Then he went to the Academy, where they discovered that he had a medical condition which was not easy to spot because it was exacerbated by his bowling action and subsided fairly quickly, but it would necessitate a change of action plus a whole new set of exercises. Trouble was, the new action rendered him almost totally ineffective, and so he injures himself every time he tries some variation to give himself some zip.

Cheers,

Mike

Yup. Thanks for contributing some facts to the Tudor discussion Mike, which makes a welcome change from the lazy uninformed generalisations we often have to read about him. As Langfeldt suggested, it is strange that Tudor's injuries and inconsistency are due to character defect in a way that is never attributed to any other English bowler.

 

[tooextracool]

I thought we were talking about the Test selections, which have been spot on.

At the time Clarke was the man in possession, so to drop him from the squad would've been a tad harsh when nobody else had done anything since the initial winter squad selection to justofy being picked.

Since then others have had made their claims and jumped ahead of him.

it would take so much of a look at clarke in those ODIs to realise he wasnt good enough with bat or ball to be selected in the test side. it would also take someone extremely dull to not pick someone with an average of over 100 in the domestic season ahead of someone who is clearly struggling with form. my point is that the test match selections have not been brilliant as you seem to make them out to be....indeed its the same bunch of selectors that picked the ODI side and will still pick geraint jones ahead of chris read for the icc championship trophy

 

[Richard]

Silverwood is not even first pick for Yorkshire

What on Earth gives you that idea?!?!
Silverwood is about the only decent bowler we've got left!

Tim Bresnan (Yorks)- not fast as such, but accurate and moves the ball. Just 19 and already a vital member of the Yorkshire OD outfit. Can hit the ball a long way. Apparently, though, he has attitude problems (a bit arrogant).

Personally I don't rate Bresnan at all - yet, anyway. He's certainly not very accurate and his batting is somewhat overrated.
Arrogance is fine if you've got something to be arrogant about! He most certainly hasn't.

Kyle Hogg (Lancs) - Tipped for the top for a few years now, but is injury prone.

Plenty are tipped for the top - IMO Hogg's best chance is to keep himself on the fringes of Lancs' one-day side. Don't think he's good enough for the Championship and I certainly don't think he's good enough for ODIs.

Liam Plunkett (Dur) - had a bit of a quiet season so far but has the potential to become a real class bowler. He's just turned 19 and already has 54 FC wickets @ 27.

Overnight Plunkett's First-Class average stands at 33.78. One of many mediocre young Durham players who won't stay in the First-Class game much longer IMO.

David Harrison (Glam) - has had a great season so far for Glamorgan in the championship and troubled England in the warm up ODI

Still not as accurate as he might be but at least he's taken wickets this season. Certainly better than he was up to last season, but nowhere near international class yet.

Sajid Mahmood (Lancs) - Made an uninspiring ODI debut for England this summer. But Dennis Lillee amongst others has tipped for the very top. Quick, tall and accurate. The next McGrath/Harmison?

Sajid Mahmood and accurate don't go together in the same sentance! About all he's done thus far is take wickets in most domestic one-day games he's played. He's been very expensive and he's not taken First-Class wickets. Of course, two seasons don't prove much but equally we can say until we see some improvement, no go!

James Anderson (Lancs) - His form is patchy, but he is quick, with the potential to be quicker. He used to swing the ball loads, and often late, but that seems to have lost him for the moment. Still a very bright future for the 22 yr old.

Anderson's pace is always something that has been overestimated. He's only ever been someone who will bowl occasional spells where he'll touch 90mph. At times during his excellent 2002 he was estimated to be almost as quick as the like of Gough, Jones and Harmison. Which, rather than showing anything about him, simply shows how bad an idea it is for anything except a speed-gun to suggest something about a bowler's pace. Bowlers will often seem quicker than they are if they're bowling well.

Kabir Ali (Worcs) - Last seasons leading wicket taker in the championship (for a quick). He is only medium pace, but bowls with accuracy and movement. A decent lower order batsman too.

If Kabir truly was accurate he'd be some bowler.
Sadly he's not yet cracked that facet.
Though he's far more medium-fast than medium. He's certainly more often than not in the early 80s.

As for the older ones, well there's Johnson, Shreck, and Wharf.

Shreck and Wharf? You having a laugh?
Wharf is not even good enough for Glamorgan. How he plays season after season despite averaging over 30 in the First-Class game and going at over 5-an-over in the one-dayers almost every season recently is totally beyond me.
Shreck, meanwhile, has had a few good games in the early part of this season. Besides that it's looked like he's pretty crap.

 

[Richard]

i really dont understand how anyone can back the english selections after they've continually picked the fearsome foursome for the ODIs and picked rikki clarke for the test series in the carribean despite doing absolutely nothing in his ODI career to date.

Just goes to show what folly it is to look at ODIs when picking for Test-cricket!