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Should we run test series with minnows differently ?

How should we run tests featuring minnows

  • Have the minnows "fight it out" to face the established team

    Votes: 11 45.8%
  • Have Them play a game each

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Keep It The Same

    Votes: 7 29.2%
  • Something Different explain ...

    Votes: 3 12.5%

  • Total voters
    24

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
The more often Bangladesh and others play the top teams, the better they will get. Simple.
That's not always true. Its true if you have a certain level of talent and a young side, and most importantly the structure and support to take onboard those lessons and use them to keep on improving. On the other hand, Bermuda or Canada could play Australia 100 times and not really derive much benefit from it. Ponting made this point about playing the USA in the second-to-last CT - the match was over in something like 3 hours (inc. change of innings) and it was hard to see what the US players would have taken away from it except that they weren't good enough to compete at that level.

You do improve by competing against equally or more talented opposition, but only if the gap in ability is reasonable enough to give you some chance. That's the case for Bangladesh, but its nowhere near the case for the associate nations, at least definitely not in the longer form of the game, and pretty much the case in ODIs as well.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
irelands doing pretty good. I thin that every team from the top 6 associates. except may be bermuda and canada, can benifit from playing bigger nations in odi's but on the other hand none of them are yet ready to play test cricket at the level of bangladesh. Let them play in the intercontinental cup and when you see team that's winning and the rest isn't challenging to them then you move them up even if they can't challenge the top 8 because after you get good enough that you're not challenged anymore by the other associates than there's no otherway for you to improve without playing test cricket, because that's when you start getting funds to improve development further. Although I wouldn't mind it if a new test team played the minimal amount of tests per year until they got better, kind of like the case now with bangladesh.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
I really don't want to denigrate Ireland because I've been pleased to see them get to this stage and then to not be humiliated, but their performance at the WC hasn't been enough to show that they'd not be hopelessly out of their depth on the normal ODI circuit. The conditions probably suit their bowlers as well as anything they'll find, and what they have achieved has been:
- defeat Pakistan. A huge moment for them, easily the pinnacle of their cricket history, but honestly probably said a lot more about how dire Pakistan were than it did about Ireland being good. They played really well by their standards and Pakistan imploded.
- tie with Zimbabwe. Poor Zimbabwe is a shadow of its former self and tieing with them probably equates to no more than beating an associate nation.
- been respectable against England. Who are probably one of the worst ODI teams amongst the 'major nations' - their win in the CB series in Australia notwithstanding.

As I said, I'm not denigrating their performances, because by Ireland's standards, and the expectations they would have had coming into the Cup, they've done brilliantly. But I also don't think they've yet demonstrated their ready to be anything other than routinely soundly beaten against the major teams. Maybe this will change and they will continue to improve, but I don't think they're there yet.

Ireland getting into the county championship in England is IMO the best thing that could happen to them. That's where they'll get the chance to consistently play and improve their standard, not in playing the top international teams.
 

readie

State Regular
My main problem with the current system is that their promotion to test status is based on their performances agaionst good sides in ODI's and against their fellow minnows in Test games.

Just because you can beat all the other minnows in test style games. Doesn't mean you are going to be competive in real test matches. This way we get to see whether they deserve test status.

However on reflection, I don't think Bangladesh should be counted as minnows, not so much because of their performances but because of their fan support. because Cricket is popular in Bangladesh will cause them to improve.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
My main problem with the current system is that their promotion to test status is based on their performances agaionst good sides in ODI's and against their fellow minnows in Test games.

Just because you can beat all the other minnows in test style games. Doesn't mean you are going to be competive in real test matches. This way we get to see whether they deserve test status.

However on reflection, I don't think Bangladesh should be counted as minnows, not so much because of their performances but because of their fan support. because Cricket is popular in Bangladesh will cause them to improve.
1st the minnows doesn't play tests, the play First class cricket.sorry for being picky on that. 2nd. They are not promoted solely on odi and first class games against other minnows. There's much more to getting test status than playing standards. After they meet all the criteria than they are looked at their playing standards. After they keep beating the other minnows there are no other way for a team to improve without getting test status. Why? 1st of all money, you get loads of money when you start playing test and play against the top teams and then with the money you can afford to have a academy and a proper system to bring even better players.

Cricket being popular in Bangladesh doesn't necessarily improve them, because Bermuda's national sport is cricket but look at them. Cricket being a major sport does help but that's not the reason you improve. You improve by having a good system which again you need money for which will come from playing tests. No other way to go.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
I really don't want to denigrate Ireland because I've been pleased to see them get to this stage and then to not be humiliated, but their performance at the WC hasn't been enough to show that they'd not be hopelessly out of their depth on the normal ODI circuit. The conditions probably suit their bowlers as well as anything they'll find, and what they have achieved has been:
- defeat Pakistan. A huge moment for them, easily the pinnacle of their cricket history, but honestly probably said a lot more about how dire Pakistan were than it did about Ireland being good. They played really well by their standards and Pakistan imploded.
- tie with Zimbabwe. Poor Zimbabwe is a shadow of its former self and tieing with them probably equates to no more than beating an associate nation.
- been respectable against England. Who are probably one of the worst ODI teams amongst the 'major nations' - their win in the CB series in Australia notwithstanding.

As I said, I'm not denigrating their performances, because by Ireland's standards, and the expectations they would have had coming into the Cup, they've done brilliantly. But I also don't think they've yet demonstrated their ready to be anything other than routinely soundly beaten against the major teams. Maybe this will change and they will continue to improve, but I don't think they're there yet.

Ireland getting into the county championship in England is IMO the best thing that could happen to them. That's where they'll get the chance to consistently play and improve their standard, not in playing the top international teams.
But playing county cricket doesn't give Ireland the money the need to move forward, playing international teams does.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
But international games aren't going to generate much money for them at the moment either. You're not going to get decent crowds at anything other than heavily discounted prices for matches against Ireland in any of the major countries.
 

readie

State Regular
But international games aren't going to generate much money for them at the moment either. You're not going to get decent crowds at anything other than heavily discounted prices for matches against Ireland in any of the major countries.
that was the main benefit of the "group" tour because by the time you get to the third test and the crap team has been smashed in the first two tests very few people give a ****
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
But international games aren't going to generate much money for them at the moment either. You're not going to get decent crowds at anything other than heavily discounted prices for matches against Ireland in any of the major countries.
No, cricket doesn't make much money of ticket sales anyways. But it's hard a team to find sponsors and stuff when they aren't playing top teams.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
that was the main benefit of the "group" tour because by the time you get to the third test and the crap team has been smashed in the first two tests very few people give a ****
really so you think that now if we hold a tour like your saying we would have a good competitive last test? No watch why-

Ken vs Scot
Ire vs Ned

Ken vs Ire

Ire vs Ind= Ireland still losing by an innings and a lot.

That doesn't work.

With Ireland winning the intercontinental cup and winning then being promoted to test status and of course they are going to lose a lot in the beginning but they still are going to make money to fund in their development. Where as playing one test isn't going to get them any cash.
 
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Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
No, cricket doesn't make much money of ticket sales anyways. But it's hard a team to find sponsors and stuff when they aren't playing top teams.
More like its hard to find sponsors when almost nobody in their home country is interested in the sport. That, to me, is the big difference between Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and the other "minnows". Ireland, Holland, Canada, etc, they all excel in different sports that are strongly supported by their population. The elite national team can lead an increase in the general level of interest, but it can only do a part of the job. Australia is really really good at waterpolo, but noone is interested enough to pay to watch it, or for it be attractive to sponsors.
 

readie

State Regular
really so you think that now if we hold a tour like your saying we would have a good competitive last test? No watch why-

Ken vs Scot
Ire vs Ned

Ken vs Ire

Ire vs Ind= Ireland still losing by an innings and a lot.

That doesn't work.

With Ireland winning the intercontinental cup and winning then being promoted to test status and of course they are going to lose a lot in the beginning but they still are going to make money to fund in their development. Where as playing one test isn't going to get them any cash.
I would have it go like this - 1st Test - Ireland play India , 2nd Test - Netherlands play India, 3rd Test - Kenya play India.

If a team can consistently beat the established teams in this type of series then they could be elevated to permeanant Test Status
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
I would have it go like this - 1st Test - Ireland play India , 2nd Test - Netherlands play India, 3rd Test - Kenya play India.

If a team can consistently beat the established teams in this type of series then they could be elevated to permeanant Test Status
How would that be possible say when you see that clearly Ireland is better then the other two. Wouldn't it be just better if you let ireland just play all there tests? Or how would that be possible when only one country meets the rest of the criteria and the other two doesn't.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
More like its hard to find sponsors when almost nobody in their home country is interested in the sport. That, to me, is the big difference between Bangladesh and Zimbabwe and the other "minnows". Ireland, Holland, Canada, etc, they all excel in different sports that are strongly supported by their population. The elite national team can lead an increase in the general level of interest, but it can only do a part of the job. Australia is really really good at waterpolo, but noone is interested enough to pay to watch it, or for it be attractive to sponsors.
But that's the thing, you won't be promoted to test status until cricket is a major sport in that certain country. So it goes like this to have test status, meet the rest of the criteria including cricket being a major sport, then perform well enough for the icc to take note by winning the intercontinental cup and dominate against the other minnows. Then you get promoted to test status. But after they start dominating and you still do not promote them to test status in fear of they are not going to be competitive is not going to help them any further. Because the development from there needs more fund which will come only if you play at the top level.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
yeah, for bermuda its their national sport but they aren't even close to the other 5 while in kenya it's good. Irish people seems to take note too after their recent success. It's a big sport, unlike waterpolo, and if you are playing at the top level people from the respective country will take note.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Kenya is probably the only associate I can see ever gaining ODI and maybe Test status. Many years away, but worth persisting with. It might be the national sport of Bermuda, but realistically, they are never going to be able to sustain a competitive international outfit. Maybe they should try to "join" the West Indies (I admit I'm hazy on the geography, but they're close to some of the countries that currently comprise the Windies aren't they?).

I think if you are successful at the top level people will take note - as appears to have happened with Ireland. That said, if you routinely get thumped at the top level, I don't think the simple fact you are competing at that level is going to win you many fans. And even more important than getting to things like the WC and performing, as Ireland has done, is having the organisation to capitalise on the window of opportunity that creates. The Irish board needs to be getting into schools this Northern summer and getting kids playing cricket - using the interest generated by the WC squad's success to introduce new fans into the game. Otherwise, it becomes not much more than a two-week wonder that will be forgotten in a few months time.
 

LA ICE-E

State Captain
Kenya is probably the only associate I can see ever gaining ODI and maybe Test status. Many years away, but worth persisting with. It might be the national sport of Bermuda, but realistically, they are never going to be able to sustain a competitive international outfit. Maybe they should try to "join" the West Indies (I admit I'm hazy on the geography, but they're close to some of the countries that currently comprise the Windies aren't they?).

I think if you are successful at the top level people will take note - as appears to have happened with Ireland. That said, if you routinely get thumped at the top level, I don't think the simple fact you are competing at that level is going to win you many fans. And even more important than getting to things like the WC and performing, as Ireland has done, is having the organisation to capitalise on the window of opportunity that creates. The Irish board needs to be getting into schools this Northern summer and getting kids playing cricket - using the interest generated by the WC squad's success to introduce new fans into the game. Otherwise, it becomes not much more than a two-week wonder that will be forgotten in a few months time.
Oh no bermuda's by florida, so they can't really join anyone. Also, I'm sure the ICC will give test status to a lot more teams than kenya, in your life time.

I know you wont gain any fans if they get thumbed but so far, they haven't. Even today when they lost by 100+ runs it wasn't like they got crushed. Plus if you play at the top level, then at the least you will get sponsors and the countries sports fund whatever will give it some money.

And richard, i don't have to understand the british isles whatever. Well, they want to do it separate now so lets see what else can be done. Playing standards isn't the only thing. If Ireland meets the other criteria then I'm sure they'll get test status because just right now the Irish is way better than the Bangladeshi team back in 99 and 2000's.
 

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