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Should Brett Lee be selected for the Ashes?

Should Brett Lee be picked for the Ashes, and if so, who misses out?

  • Yes - Johnson misses out

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes - Siddle misses out

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    71
  • Poll closed .

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Ever heard of K.I.S.S.?
?
Saying Lee can't attack is plain stupid. What has the man been doing to have 310 wickets, then?
If you actually read properly, you'd notice the "if" there. There are indeed circumstances under which Lee cannot effectively attack (plenty of them) and under such circumstances he is rendered impotent.

Never once has there been a suggestion from me or anyone else that Lee can never be an attacking bowler. Just that "being an attacking bowler" doesn't mean you can take wickets under any circumstances.
 

scorpiogal

U19 Debutant
?

If you actually read properly, you'd notice the "if" there. There are indeed circumstances under which Lee cannot effectively attack (plenty of them) and under such circumstances he is rendered impotent.

Never once has there been a suggestion from me or anyone else that Lee can never be an attacking bowler. Just that "being an attacking bowler" doesn't mean you can take wickets under any circumstances.

That K.I.S.S. exactly.:laugh:

Cut the crap. Lee can attack. There is no if. 300 wickets speak for themselves.

Having said that, there are instances where Clark can't do ANYTHING to be effective and looks quite ordinary.

Again I'll say: stupid comparison.

And a waste of time.

Lee hasn't played FC yet but has impressed in the IPL and Clark hasn't impressed at all in the ODIS in Dubai.

Let's wait till they both can get good FC overs under their belts, k, hun?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
That K.I.S.S. exactly.:laugh:
Which has what relevance to what exactly?
Cut the crap. Lee can attack. There is no if. 300 wickets speak for themselves.
There is no if about the fact that there are circumstances, plenty of them, where Lee has been unable to attack. He has not taken 300 wickets in every Test he's played in. He's taken 300 wickets because he's played lots and lots of Test cricket, and has had two very short but very, very good spells.
 

scorpiogal

U19 Debutant
Which has what relevance to what exactly?
How old are you? Keep It Simple Stupid = K.I.S.S.8-)

There is no if about the fact that there are circumstances, plenty of them, where Lee has been unable to attack.
And there are plenty of other circumstances where many a bowler couldn't attack 8-)
Take Johnson, for instance, in the Windies last year. He was utter rubbish. You're talking b.s.

He has not taken 300 wickets in every Test he's played in. He's taken 300 wickets because he's played lots and lots of Test cricket, and has had two very short but very, very good spells.
What the f*** are you on about? The man took 300 test and ODI wickets. Don't try to play down the achievement 8-)
There's obviously some great skill and talent there to take 310 (I can't believe I just had to say that. We're talking about B.Lee here not some small time Siddle or Hilfenhaus)
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
How old are you?
That's of relevance why precisely?
Keep It Simple Stupid = K.I.S.S.8-)
As opposed to keep it simplistic stupid, which someone is doing a pretty good job of here.
And there are plenty of other circumstances where many a bowler couldn't attack 8-)
Take Johnson, for instance, in the Windies last year. He was utter rubbish. You're talking b.s.
Hahaha, err, no, actually, I'm talking perfect sense, as per usual. Quite why it seems so difficult to see that I don't know, but the inability is in the eye of the beholder.
What the f*** are you on about? The man took 300 test and ODI wickets. Don't try to play down the achievement 8-)
There's obviously some great skill and talent there to take 310 (I can't believe I just had to say that. We're talking about B.Lee here not some small time Siddle or Hilfenhaus)
Right, let's get this straight - Brett Lee has for most of his career been an extremely poor bowler in Test cricket, though he has had two very brief spells where he's been superlative. At most times, he has struggled to attack with any great efficiency and has had no hope of defending remotely efficiently.

That's all there is to it.
 

Uppercut

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Right, let's get this straight - Brett Lee has for most of his career been an extremely poor bowler in Test cricket, though he has had two very brief spells where he's been superlative. At most times, he has struggled to attack with any great efficiency and has had no hope of defending remotely efficiently.
I'm just looking at Brett Lee's averages by year. You might find this interesting- there's a definite period of something in between extremely poor and superlative in the 2005/06 period. Starting with the first match of the 2005 Ashes, and ending before the start of the home summer in 2007- widely considered the beginning of his second excellent period- Lee took 88 wickets at an average of 29, Bangladesh excluded. That's a big period- well over a quarter of his career wickets- in which Lee was neither superlative nor atrocious, where he was instead fairly good. In truth, it's more of an inconsistent mixture of the two, but i still thought it was worth mentioning.

It seems Lee's rise to brilliance in 2007 was not quite so sudden as it seemed.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I've had people say this before - I don't, personally, believe Lee bowled especially outstandingly in 2005/06 and certainly not in 2006/07.

In 2005/06 he had a couple of good hauls against a very poor West Indies batting unit (something, let's note, that he'd been unable to do against poor batting units he'd faced previously), bowled OK against SA home and away (no more than that - the pitches in SA were more seam-friendly than almost any other he'd bowled on all career) and then was flattered grossly by his figures against England in 2006/07.

That Lee of 2005/06 > Lee of any time 2001-2005 is not an outrageous proposition at all. That Lee of 2005/06 was anything other than just-about-acceptable (not even decent, I'd say) is.
 

Uppercut

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I'll only strongly disagree with his figures flattering him in 2006/07. When you bowl that fast you will quite often get wickets with inaccurate balls. It's not luck.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I've had people say this before - I don't, personally, believe Lee bowled especially outstandingly in 2005/06 and certainly not in 2006/07.


In 2005/06 he had a couple of good hauls against a very poor West Indies batting unit (something, let's note, that he'd been unable to do against poor batting units he'd faced previously), bowled OK against SA home and away (no more than that - the pitches in SA were more seam-friendly than almost any other he'd bowled on all career) and then was flattered grossly by his figures against England in 2006/07.

That Lee of 2005/06 > Lee of any time 2001-2005 is not an outrageous proposition at all. That Lee of 2005/06 was anything other than just-about-acceptable (not even decent, I'd say) is.
Wam wid ya boy, wa i tell about your personally ideologies that you alone believe shotta??

Bun it now na man, geez...
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'll only strongly disagree with his figures flattering him in 2006/07. When you bowl that fast you will quite often get wickets with inaccurate balls. It's not luck.
He didn't in the first three Tests - in those he got pretty much the figures he deserved. Then in the last two he was gifted plenty of wickets with nothing bowling. It wasn't just inaccurate deliveries - it was utter nothing bowling.

If "it happens", then why has it happened so rarely over his career?
 

Uppercut

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He didn't in the first three Tests - in those he got pretty much the figures he deserved. Then in the last two he was gifted plenty of wickets with nothing bowling. It wasn't just inaccurate deliveries - it was utter nothing bowling.

If "it happens", then why has it happened so rarely over his career?
I'd say it's happened just the right amount. There's been plenty of times he's bowled much better and not got wickets. Why would you even bother holding it against him when he got wickets when bowling badly?
 

scorpiogal

U19 Debutant
He didn't in the first three Tests - in those he got pretty much the figures he deserved. Then in the last two he was gifted plenty of wickets with nothing bowling. It wasn't just inaccurate deliveries - it was utter nothing bowling.

If "it happens", then why has it happened so rarely over his career?

FFS! Why are you acting like no-one else takes wickets with rubbish bowling?

We've seen Johnson take wickets with some of the dumbest deliveries ever. At the end of the day, a wicket is a wicket. It doesn't say next to it "but it was a nothing delivery" 8-)


But you know, any of those young quicks in the current squad would love to take at least half of those 310 nothing wickets taken with nothing deliveries.:laugh:
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
FFS! Why are you acting like no-one else takes wickets with rubbish bowling?

We've seen Johnson take wickets with some of the dumbest deliveries ever. At the end of the day, a wicket is a wicket. It doesn't say next to it "but it was a nothing delivery" 8-)
Wickets through good bowling merits praise. Wickets through nothing bowling does not merit any praise. It's not really very complicated.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'd say it's happened just the right amount. There's been plenty of times he's bowled much better and not got wickets. Why would you even bother holding it against him when he got wickets when bowling badly?
I can't think of very many times in Lee's career where he's bowled well and returned average figures. Not many at all. So thus, on occasions where he's been flattered by his figures - as he eminently was in those last couple of Tests of 2006/07 - I don't tend to take too kindly to it.
 

scorpiogal

U19 Debutant
I have to say Richard, for the most part, you come off as an old fart with life-long membership in the Brett Lee Haters Club. No offence.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I have to say Richard, for the most part, you come off as an old fart with life-long membership in the Brett Lee Haters Club. No offence.
And I have to say that you are wrong, because you have no idea what you're talking about, knowing as you do barely the first thing about me. No offence.
 

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