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Shane Warne vs Imran Khan
- Thread starter DrWolverine
- Start date
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Precisely. I don't see a unique argument of Warne over Imran that cant be applied to top tier pacers since objectively Imran was more consistent across conditions with better overall stats as they were too.
I think Warne is better than those ATG pacers who don't have as much success across conditions.
sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
Yes imo.
There is a 450ish wicket difference between Holding and Warne and 350ish for Imran and Warne. These numbers are pretty similar wherever you draw a line in the sand over what defines an ATG.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Excellent point. Considering they're very much in the same tier as bowlers.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Johan
Cricketer Of The Year
Imran (without Sri Lanka): 316 @ 24.00
Holding (never played Lankans): 249 @ 23.69
Even though I believe Imran is a better bowler, on longevity and peak as well as having to bowl to the strongest batting, I don't think saying one being compared to Warne is insulting to Warne while other straight up apparently beats Warne, though I think Subs may just have exaggerated a bit.
Holding (never played Lankans): 249 @ 23.69
Even though I believe Imran is a better bowler, on longevity and peak as well as having to bowl to the strongest batting, I don't think saying one being compared to Warne is insulting to Warne while other straight up apparently beats Warne, though I think Subs may just have exaggerated a bit.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lol guys I explicitly said that Holding on quality probably belongs in the top tier but for his wicket tally.
So the insult part was just on having any pacer below 300 being favored over Warne.
Anyways if folks are going to get hung up on just one word I will take it back.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
I have them basically in the same tier. Some would argue Holding was better than Imran during that era as well.
When one factors in Imran's "home advantages" , on top of those numbers. There's not much between the two. And again Holding also played additional WSC tours.
Imran is slightly ahead, but there's no gulf and again in the same grouping with Donald and Lillee, Wasim etc.
IK falling behind can be explained by two things,
Away avg 26-27 with SR 60+ & many fans giving less weight to his great home stats.
I doubt that many are simply looking at volume of wickets and rating Warne higher.
In this above list, IK's SR has literally the second highest SR. Yes, he had some great series and that's already included in over all away record.
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When you flip it for home, situation is very different. IK lands near the top with Waqar Younis topping the chart. IK is the only great pacer to have such a large gap between home and away. May be Waqar if you consider him a great bowler.
Based on what went on those days, many will pay attention to away record and give more weight to it. You couldn't tamper the ball openly and umpires were not helping you when playing away. So eveyrone was at equal footings when playing away. There is no need to drill down to find out who tampered the ball most or who got help from umpires most. Anyone claiming that eveyrone was doing it at the same level should have no issue with seeing away for the same players. IK had some great series away and yet his aggregate away avg is 26-27 with SR 60 plus.
If I ignore ball tampering and home umpire issue, then I don't see how IK is not higher than Warne in over all output. Warne had issue in WI/Ind so that counts negative for him. Interesting thing is that, Warne struck quicker and averaged lower or similar to IK when playing away despite getting a thrashing in Ind and WI. Normally pacers are supposed to strike quickly.
Personally, I am not sure about comparing Spinner and pacers just based on raw stats. Spinners can bowl for a much longer time and can tie up one end. They play a bit different role.
Away avg 26-27 with SR 60+ & many fans giving less weight to his great home stats.
I doubt that many are simply looking at volume of wickets and rating Warne higher.
In this above list, IK's SR has literally the second highest SR. Yes, he had some great series and that's already included in over all away record.
---------------
When you flip it for home, situation is very different. IK lands near the top with Waqar Younis topping the chart. IK is the only great pacer to have such a large gap between home and away. May be Waqar if you consider him a great bowler.
Based on what went on those days, many will pay attention to away record and give more weight to it. You couldn't tamper the ball openly and umpires were not helping you when playing away. So eveyrone was at equal footings when playing away. There is no need to drill down to find out who tampered the ball most or who got help from umpires most. Anyone claiming that eveyrone was doing it at the same level should have no issue with seeing away for the same players. IK had some great series away and yet his aggregate away avg is 26-27 with SR 60 plus.
If I ignore ball tampering and home umpire issue, then I don't see how IK is not higher than Warne in over all output. Warne had issue in WI/Ind so that counts negative for him. Interesting thing is that, Warne struck quicker and averaged lower or similar to IK when playing away despite getting a thrashing in Ind and WI. Normally pacers are supposed to strike quickly.
Personally, I am not sure about comparing Spinner and pacers just based on raw stats. Spinners can bowl for a much longer time and can tie up one end. They play a bit different role.
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Agreed.
Last edited:
subshakerz
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
What's strange is you say you don't like spinners though, yet have Warne so high.
Though I will admit as far as greatness goes, Warne is above even McGrath though he was an inferior bowler.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah Warne striking at about the same rate away.
Holding had a better away record by some margin.
Holding away - 163 wickets at avg of 23-24 - SR 51
IK away - 184 wickets at avg of 26-27 - SR 60
It was reverse at home. IK had a better home record by some margin.
Only question is how much weight you give to home vs away for that period when we are having to debate about who benefitted more due to biased home umpiring or who got to tamper the ball openly more than others.
I will take Donald over IK even though I will put them in the same bracket.
Johan
Cricketer Of The Year
my main problem with spinners usually is that they're usually non-exceptional if all conditioned (Swann, Lyon) or too pitch dependent and warm the benches when the conditions aren't going their way (Ashwin, Herath).
Warne, Murali and O Reilly transcend that so they get different treatment than even number 4 and number 5 (Clarrie Grimmett, Jim Laker).
sayon basak
Cricketer Of The Year
Him having the spinners this high is a modern development. He used to have both of the two outside top 10.
kyear2
Hall of Fame Member
I see Barnes is steadily rising, lol.
That aside, I too also vary on where to rank those two, ahead or behind the spinners. Either way I have all 4 in the same sub tier behind the top 3.
Steyn's ability to wreck havoc unlike any other and Ambrose's penchant to take early top order wickets being comparable only to Maco, Pigeon and Davidson and his over all record currently have them ahead for me.