Saeed Anwar vs. Virender Sehwag

[G.I.Joe]

What?. He wasn't scoring runs because he was exposed technically contiously. If you are going to tell for example Matthew Hoggard didn't own Sehwag in 05/06, Asif & Akhtar Karachi 06, Taylor in Kingston 06 & SA seamers in 06/07. I dont know what you where watching, you living in denial son..



That ******** way he he bats in ODIs hasn't gone away. Thats the beauty of Sehwag's batting he plays the same ultra aggressive way regardless of circumstances. I thought he may have brought some maturity to his batting was after he scored that hundred in Adelaide & after the triple. But in the last two test of SA series 08/09 when Steyn & co got bowler friendly conditions it was de ja vu all over again.

Nah, its obvious you haven't been watching him play at all.

 

[aussie]

Nah, its obvious you haven't been watching him play at all.

Ha nah its you, allright i done star since its clear here some people have ideological gridlock that wont change. When are IND touring South Africa, West Indies or playing Pakistan again?.

Since i'll say again, Sehwag will face againts those pace attacks if he encounters bowler friendly conditions againts them unless he eradicates his technical flaws. Mark this spot...

 

[G.I.Joe]

Ha nah its you, allright i done star since its clear here some people have ideological gridlock that wont change. When are IND touring South Africa, West Indies or playing Pakistan again?.

Since i'll say again, Sehwag will face againts those pace attacks if he encounters bowler friendly conditions againts them unless he eradicates his technical flaws. Mark this spot...

Says the guy who gets his panties in a bunch everytime someone mentions IPL and ICC in the same post. Sorry to be blunt, but you're talking out of your ass. Sehwag's issue when he was dropped was more about keeping his speedometer under leash, rather than any technical flaws.

 

[aussie]

Says the guy who gets his panties in a bunch everytime someone mentions IPL and ICC in the same post.

. I have absoultey no shame in this regard & i will continue to complain as concerned cricket fan.

Sorry to be blunt, but you're talking out of your ass.

Nah i basing my argument based on what i've seen of Sehwag & thanks to skysports over here i have seen every India test series that Sehwag has played starting from ENG 01/02. So my judgement on him is as good as judging any Australian or English player.

Sehwag's issue when he was dropped was more about keeping his speedometer under leash, rather than any technical flaws.

Do you deny that Sehwag has a weakness to inswingers & cannot play short pitched bowling?. If its no then its very obvious that he has been exposed technically in the past in the test i highlighted. If you do deny then it will explain why you have this view..

 

[G.I.Joe]

. I have absoultey no shame in this regard & i will continue to complain as concerned cricket fan.



Nah i basing my argument based on what i've seen of Sehwag & thanks to skysports over here i have seen every India test series that Sehwag has played starting from ENG 01/02. So my judgement on him is as good as judging any Australian or English player.



Do you deny that Sehwag has a weakness to inswinger & cannot play short pitched bowling?. If its no then its very obvious that he has been exposed technically in the past. If no then it will explain why you have this view..

I couldn't care less if he has a problem with the moving ball. He's done well enough the times I've seen him play in those situations, and more than made up for it elsewhere to convince me.

What I have objected to is you
(a) holding the view that he hasn't done well in those situations (irrespective of whether true or not), and
(b) possessing the knowledge that he has been dropped from the team in the past.

then go ahead and pretend that the two are related. the reason he was dropped wasn't lack of technique. it was because he wasn't using his brain cells right. Its like me having pudding for breakfast and winning the lottery in the evening, then deciding that the former directly resulted in the latter because it just suits me to pretend so. Theres a cause and effect assumption fallacy right there even without accounting for the inherent lack of validity of the supposed cause.

 

[aussie]

I couldn't care less if he has a problem with the moving ball. He's done well enough the times I've seen him play in those situations, and more than made up for it elsewhere to convince me.

Dont bring arrogance to me but "you couldn't care less". Answer the question do you believe he has those technical issues or not?.

Secondly No as i showed clearly a few pages back. Even if as some have argued that he has had success in such situations i.e his debut, Nottingham 02 & Chennai 04. He has clearly failed in more conditions: See here. Thats 14 to 3.

What I have objected to is you
(a) holding the view that he hasn't done well in those situations (irrespective of whether true or not), and
(b) possessing the knowledge that he has been dropped from the team in the past.

then go ahead and pretend that the two are related. the reason he was dropped wasn't lack of technique. it was because he wasn't using his brain cells right. Its like me having pudding for breakfast and winning the lottery in the evening, then deciding that the former directly resulted in the latter because it just suits me to pretend so. Theres a cause and effect assumption fallacy right there even without accounting for the inherent lack of validity of the supposed cause.

They are related. Since if you are going to use this weak argument that "Sehwag wasn't with sense thats why failed". You for example are basically discrediting all the planning Duncan Fletcher & England had in place for Sehwag before they toured IND 05/06, which Hoggard executed to perfection.

During that same year as well 2006 when Sehwag was "batting without a brain" as you claim he almost scored a hundred before lunch, which would have been a test record. Then when the WI attack got a bowler friendly wicket in the final test in Jamaica, young Taylor had him skating. Who stood up for IND? the great Dravid, why?, because unlike Sehwag when the going gets tough he has the technique to stand up.

As i said before this a ideological argument. If you serious believe has no technical flaws & has had more success againts the moving ball & quality pace attacks than he has failed again them. I cant convince you.

If he doesn't improve technically, just wait until IND play South Africa, West Indies or PAK again in bowler friendly conditions he will fail again.

 

[Ikki]

If Sehwag was dropped for technical reasons...then why was he retained? He still has those deficiencies according to you; yet he is making runs quite consistently.

I am not too intimate with the Indian cricket scene but IIRC people were kinda surprised even when Sehwag was dropped.

 

[subshakerz]

It isn't like Anwar was a huge success in the 90s. If you're arguing that Sehwag wouldn't have averaged 50 in the 1990s (we have no way of knowing this), Anwar DID NOT average 50 in the 1990s, so what is your point? He averaged 46 in the 1990s with a SR of 57. The question is if Sehwag's average would have gone down by more than 4 points and his SR by more than 23.I really don't think so.

Actually, I think if Sehwag had to consistently play Walsh & Ambrose, Waqar & Wasim, Donald & Pollock and McGrath & Gillepsie abroad in the 90s, he would struggle to average 40 IMO. He never faced an attack abroad compared to those, and any attack approaching them he's usually struggle against. So it's a fair bet.

 

[subshakerz]

If Sehwag was dropped for technical reasons...then why was he retained? He still has those deficiencies according to you; yet he is making runs quite consistently.

No better replacement. Let's see next time he comes to SA and faces Steyn or Pakistan and faces Asif/Aamer on non-dead pitches if he's the same player.

 

[subshakerz]

But if Sehwag played in a predominantly pitch-friendlier era, he'd face more difficulty, which would mean a better chance of him improving more; and he'd probably change his approach because of it.

Has he displayed that capacity to change his game? Or are you simply assuming it?

 

[aussie]

No better replacement. Let's see next time he comes to SA and faces Steyn or Pakistan and faces Asif/Aamer on non-dead pitches if he's the same player.

Exactly. I would consider WI attack of Taylor/Edawrds/Roach to be good enough to test him out as well, since Taylor for one did it before & he is more mature now.

But i'm done arguing i will just be repeating myself & i will just wait till he faces these bowlers again in testing conditions again. You could war on if you want sir..

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Actually, I think if Sehwag had to consistently play Walsh & Ambrose, Waqar & Wasim, Donald & Pollock and McGrath & Gillepsie abroad in the 90s, he would struggle to average 40 IMO. He never faced an attack abroad compared to those, and any attack approaching them he's usually struggle against. So it's a fair bet.

Anwar against Donald and Pollock : Average 28.77

Anwar against Walsh and Ambrose : Average 20.25

Anwar against McGrath : Average 61.23

He never faced Waqar and Wasim obviously so I don't see how you can hold that against Sehwag.

If you combine all of the above, Anwar averages 39. You said Sehwag would struggle to average 40, well I have news for you - Anwar didn't average 40 either.

 

[subshakerz]

Anwar against Donald and Pollock : Average 28.77

Anwar against Walsh and Ambrose : Average 20.25

Anwar against McGrath : Average 61.23

He never faced Waqar and Wasim obviously so I don't see how you can hold that against Sehwag.

If you combine all of the above, Anwar averages 39. You said Sehwag would struggle to average 40, well I have news for you - Anwar didn't average 40 either.

Well, the attacks I mentioned weren't all the attacks in world cricket. I meant that he would struggle to average 40 overall including lesser attacks. Anwar may not have been as good as Steve Waugh against quality pace, but his sporadic successes are more than anything Sehwag would achieve.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Well, the attacks I mentioned weren't all the attacks in world cricket. I meant that he would struggle to average 40 overall including lesser attacks. Anwar may not have been as good as Steve Waugh against quality pace, but his sporadic successes are more than anything Sehwag would achieve.

So now you are arguing that Sehwag wouldn't have averaged 40 against lesser attacks. I thought the argument was Sehwag's "problems" against quality attacks

You can keep going around in circles all you want. Sehwag is no Bradman but he has certainly done okay against pretty much every attack he has faced. You cannot argue what he would have done against bowlers he hasn't faced. It's the same as me arguing Bradman would have averaged 20 against the bowlers of this era. That's a farcical argument to say the least.

And if you want to discount his performances against the great bowlers on flat tracks, then you must count his performances against average-decent bowlers on friendly tracks. An average of 60 in Australia with a SR that Anwar couldn't hope to achieve is enough for me and most others.

 

[aussie]

This is some serious cherry picking of stats. Since i'm not sure if you have followed Anwar's career in depth

Anwar against Donald and Pollock : Average 28.77

Anwar against Walsh and Ambrose : Average 20.25.

This is so because based on my memory of Anwar in 90s & resaerch of his career. He had a bit of bad patch when SA toured PAK in 97. This was vindicated by another pakistan poster Xuhaib earlier in this thread.

But in peak form Anwar vs SA in their own backyard he averaged 47. Superior to anything Sehwag has done againts any quality pace attack in bowler friendly conditions.

Also his record vs WI is hindered by the fact that on his debut he wasn't ready for test cricket in 1990. Anwar missed the WI tour when he was at his peak in 2000 for whatever reasons (probably the death of his daughter), if Imran Nazir could score hundreds againts Walsh & Ambrose then, so would have Anwar.

Overall as i've said before the Anwar i saw in 6 testsvs AUS home & away in the late 90s was clearly superior to Sehwag.

 

[aussie]

And if you want to discount his performances against the great bowlers on flat tracks, then you must count his performances against average-decent bowlers on friendly tracks. An average of 60 in Australia with a SR that Anwar couldn't hope to achieve is enough for me and most others.

More cherry picking. The AUS attack that Sehwag smashed in 2003/04 was a poor attack on flat decks. It was worst AUS attack (outside the IND tour 98) during the glory years of 95 to 2006/07.

While on his only test in 07/08. It was on traditionally flat Adelaide deck where he scored that hundred.

Plus nobody is discrediting his runs againts great attacks on flat decks. This has been acknowledged by saying on flat decks he destroy any attack as shown by his two Chennai hundreds in 2004 & 2008. But the when those same attacks gets testing conditions, he has failed.

 

[subshakerz]

More cherry picking. The AUS attack that Sehwag smashed in 2003/04 was a poor attack on flat decks. It was worst AUS attack (outside the IND tour 98) during the glory years of 95 to 2006/07.

While on his only test in 07/08. It was on traditionally flat Adelaide deck where he scored that hundred.

Plus nobody is discrediting his runs againts great attacks on flat decks. This has been acknowledged by saying on flat decks he destroy any attack as shown by his two Chennai hundreds in 2004 & 2008. But the when those same attacks gets testing conditions, he has failed.

Somehow they don't seem to get this simple point.

 

[subshakerz]

So now you are arguing that Sehwag wouldn't have averaged 40 against lesser attacks. I thought the argument was Sehwag's "problems" against quality attacks
.

No, average 40 overall, including lesser and worldclass attacks.

 

[Shri]

What was the par average for batsmen striking at 90+ in the 1990s btw?

 

[Ikki]

No, average 40 overall, including lesser and worldclass attacks.

With all due respect...this is quite a ridiculous notion. That Sehwag would fall a full 10 points in his overall average is untenable IMO. You can't even prove if he would regress at all; just as you can't rule out that he'd improve.