richie benaud's greatest 11

[Smudge]

Wrong - by "invented" I quite clearly meant patented it and showed everyone how to do it, and I quite clearly stated that Barnes bowled stuff that no-one could comprehend, so it's quite clearly possible that he bowled a Flipper.

By the same token, it's quite possible that he didn't.

 

[C_C]

Wrong - by "invented" I quite clearly meant patented it and showed everyone how to do it, and I quite clearly stated that Barnes bowled stuff that no-one could comprehend, so it's quite clearly possible that he bowled a Flipper.

pure speculation and faulty one at that.
There are numerous accoutns that categorically state that Grimmett was the first to bowl the flipper. Thus no one before him has any credible claims of bowling it.
Just like before WG Grace, no one has any credible claim of consistently batting with a straight bat and with modernistic strokes.

 

[SJS]

They haven't - and it's quite conceivable that Warne and Murali were every bit as accurate as him - but by the sounds of things Barnes was rather quicker and could bowl almost as many different balls as Warne - plus bowl seam-up.

And he could swing the ball in the air, HUGELY, both in and out !! He did it not by bowling like a seamer but like a leg spinner !! He had such powerful wrists that he could hold the ball like a leg spinner, with the seam facing just towards fine leg slip and bowl this fast leg break thrown in the direction of first-second slip. The ball travelled in the air with the seam position intact, which many medium pacers fail to do even in the conventional (and much easier locked wrist finger directed manner).

The ball swung in to the batsman in the air and pitchin, say on the leg stump, then broke like the lrg break that it was and took the off stump !!

Think about it and the mind boggles !

Yes, its true he did not bowl the googly. He thought very highly of Orielly. Onnce someone, I forget who but can look up, mentioned to him that Orielly had a weapon in his armoury that Barnes didn't have. Barnes remarked that yes he did not bowl the googly and then added that he never felt the need for it !!

 

[SJS]

Just like before WG Grace, no one has any credible claim of consistently batting with a straight bat and with modernistic strokes.

Now where in heavens did that bit come from.

You continue to amaze me with your vast and 'novel' knowledge of the game.

As far as modernistic is concerned. It was not modern strokes but as the father of the now common practice of players being adept at both. Before him players were either front foot players or back foot players. He combined both and made a 'complete batsman'. To that extent he was the father of modern day batting, one could say.

 

[SJS]

doubt that.
I forget which one, but one of the googly or flipper was invented by Clarrie Grimmett.Sid Barnes being before him, most probably never bowled that particular delivery. So i fail to see how he can have more different balls than Warne or Murali.

Googly came out of South Africa at the turn of the last century. Bowlers in England and Australia learnt it and mastered it.

Flipper ! Define a flipper please.

 

[C_C]

As far as modernistic is concerned. It was not modern strokes but as the father of the now common practice of players being adept at both. Before him players were either front foot players or back foot players. He combined both and made a 'complete batsman'. To that extent he was the father of modern day batting, one could say.

Incorrect.
he practically invented modern day batting. The stance, the repertoire of shots such as cover drive, backfoot drive, pull, front foot drives etc. etc.
I can quote you several sources on this.

Flipper ! Define a flipper please.

i am sure you can look up the definition in your spare time.

 

[SJS]

Incorrect.
he practically invented modern day batting. The stance, the repertoire of shots such as cover drive, backfoot drive, pull, front foot drives etc. etc.
I can quote you several sources on this.

Pls do. Willl be obliged. Please quote for each, stance, cover drive, backfoot drive, pull, front foot drives and , of course the etc.etc's

i am sure you can look up the definition in your spare time.

Forget it. I dont need it for myself but before one discusses who invented the flipper , which you know of course, I thought we might end up with you differing with the definition of the flipper once an argument was offered.

 

[Richard]

pure speculation and faulty one at that.
There are numerous accoutns that categorically state that Grimmett was the first to bowl the flipper. Thus no one before him has any credible claims of bowling it.
Just like before WG Grace, no one has any credible claim of consistently batting with a straight bat and with modernistic strokes.

And of course because everyone who watched Grimmett didn't watch everyone else there's no way you can say there's little possibility of anyone else bowling it.
As for the bit about pre-Grace batting, that's simply laughable and totally ineducted, I really do have my doubts about your sources of cricket history.

 

[Richard]

By the same token, it's quite possible that he didn't.

Of course it is - and I never said it wasn't.

 

[Richard]

Forget it. I dont need it for myself but before one discusses who invented the flipper , which you know of course, I thought we might end up with you differing with the definition of the flipper once an argument was offered.

Personally I would call the Flipper the topspinner which "flips" (ie bounces more than expected).

 

[Smudge]

Personally I would call the Flipper the topspinner which "flips" (ie bounces more than expected).

That's vastly different from the ''flipper'' that Warne originally bowled and the ''flipper'' I was taught by Billy Ibadulla.

 

[Son Of Coco]

Personally I would call the Flipper the topspinner which "flips" (ie bounces more than expected).

It's supposed to be an underspinner that skids straight through. It comes out the front of the hand........which is how underspin is imparted.

 

[SJS]

Incorrect.
he practically invented modern day batting. The stance, the repertoire of shots such as cover drive, backfoot drive, pull, front foot drives etc. etc.
I can quote you several sources on this.

i am sure you can look up the definition in your spare time.

Dear C_C,

I eagerly await your information on the sources (totally unimpeachable no doubt), that you said you could quote on the good doctor being the 'inventor' of the modern day stance, cover drive, backfoot drive, pull etc etc.

By the way, you may have noticed that already three web members have commented on the definition of the flipper. Two have given varying definitions and a third has disagreed ! You will no doubt agree that with such a vast difference in understanding what a flipper is, its not surprising that there are more than one 'claimants' of the knowledge of who invented the flipper. Unfortunately, I am not one of those, so I am very keen to know your source of
'There are numerous accoutns that categorically state that Grimmett was the first to bowl the flipper..

I doubt if the term flipper existed when Grimmett played his cricket so it is all the more interesting to know who says he invented this 'flipper' you talk of and what that delivery was called then or at least a description of it, dont you think ?

You have also mentioned in an earlier post...
I forget which one, but one of the googly or flipper was invented by Clarrie Grimmett
Here is a very intersting reference (one of many) to the 'invention' of the googly by a very well known leg break googly bowler.

Now what is a googly ? you may ask. A googly is an off-break with a leg-break action.

The English bowler Bosanquet was one of the first to exploit this kind of delivery. During the visit of the 1903-04 English team to Australia he caused no end of trouble to Australia's leading batsmen with this off-breaking leg-break. ....

The googly is also named after Bosanquet and is often called the "Bosey"

Guess who wrote this. A great Australian leg spinner called Clarrie Grimmett in his delightful little book, Tricking the Batsman (Hodder & Stoughton, London 1934). Not surprisingly, nowhere in this detailed coaching book is there any mention of the term flipper nor (through modesty you may claim) any mention of a new delivery which the author claims to have discovered , invented that may later have become the modern day flipper.

Thats why my keen ness to learn of your sources of the ball that Grimmett 'invented'.

Regards

PS. Just an aside, this book was published in 1934 and Grimmett retired in 1936. Doubtful if he invented it as he contemplated his retirement. But you never know. The South Africans, who are the only test side he played in 1935-36, might know !!

 

[Richard]

It's supposed to be an underspinner that skids straight through. It comes out the front of the hand........which is how underspin is imparted.

You'd consider bouncing less than anticipated "flipping"?
I've always considered to "flip" to be to bounce more than expected.

 

[Swervy]

You'd consider bouncing less than anticipated "flipping"?
I've always considered to "flip" to be to bounce more than expected.

I guess it can be both...for me, its when the ball just comes on straight and faster of the pitch than normal,it can bounce high or low

 

[BoyBrumby]

I've just read the entire thread (it's a slow Saturday & I'm waiting for a new fridge to be delivered) and think it's instructive that "who's the better/best bowler" has been argued at great (and at times painful!) length, whereas Richie's picks for his batting line up (Hobbs, Gavaskar, Bradman, Viv Richards, Tendulkar & Sobers) have scarcely elicited a comment.

 

[GotSpin]

Maybe everyone agrees on that

 

[SJS]

I've just read the entire thread (it's a slow Saturday & I'm waiting for a new fridge to be delivered) and think it's instructive that "who's the better/best bowler" has been argued at great (and at times painful!) length, whereas Richie's picks for his batting line up (Hobbs, Gavaskar, Bradman, Viv Richards, Tendulkar & Sobers) have scarcely elicited a comment.

Interesting comment.

i would like to believe that this is because not many will dispute Hobbs being the best opener, Bradman the best batsman and Sobers the best all rounder of all time. Since two of the other three (Tendulkar and Richards) are current or recent cricketers, it is also not likely to be debated that aggressively, though I suspect the arguments about bowlers have made the potential Lara/Tendulkar angle dormant.

To disagree with Gavaskar with some strength of conviction one really needs to talk of Hutton or others far too much in the past. Again I think the populace here is not too passionately supportive of that line. Adfd to that Gavaskars 10000 runs and 34 hundreds and its very impressive to a stats conscious public.

The bowlers are different. Today's bowlers ahve far out stripped their 'ancestors' in statistical terms and all kinds of real or innovatively thought up 'technical' reasons are fabricated to support what really is our fascination with our own times greats and their massive records which totally overwhelm those who played much fewer games. But thats conveniently forgotten.

 

[Richard]

I've just read the entire thread (it's a slow Saturday & I'm waiting for a new fridge to be delivered) and think it's instructive that "who's the better/best bowler" has been argued at great (and at times painful!) length, whereas Richie's picks for his batting line up (Hobbs, Gavaskar, Bradman, Viv Richards, Tendulkar & Sobers) have scarcely elicited a comment.

Welcome to CW.n!

 

[Richard]

I guess it can be both...for me, its when the ball just comes on straight and faster of the pitch than normal,it can bounce high or low

That's the essence of it, I suppose.
Of course, there are about 50 different balls that do that ATM - Murali's Doyserra or God-knows-what and Warne's "Slider" (which he tends to bowl better and more often than his Flipper).
But a straight-on ball is something any fool can bowl - it's alternating it from the stock that matters.