Richard Hadlee vs Ian Botham

[subshakerz]

Link to Radio Times list below.

Best cricketers of all time

Our pick of 20 of the greatest male cricketers ever to have played the game

www.radiotimes.com

TMS Top 100 (1999): 1 Bradman, 2 Grace, 3 Hobbs, 4 Sobers, 5 Lara, 6 Botham, 7 Viv Richards, 8 Hutton, 9 Warne, 10 Wilfred Rhodes, 11 Hammond, 12 Gavaskar, 13 Tendulkar, 14 Lillee, 15 Barry Richards, 16 Barnes, 17 Holding, 18 Imran, 19 Compton, 20 O'Reilly

21 Herbert Sutcliffe, 22 Shrewsbury, 23 Headley, 24 Benaud, 25 Kapil Dev, 26 Lohmann, 27 Knott, 28 Steve Waugh, 29 Spofforth, 30 Gooch, 31 Evans. 32 Trumper, 33 Procter, 34 Clive Lloyd, 35 Ambrose, 36 Graeme Pollock, 37 Greg Chappell, 38 Hadlee, 39 Worrell, 40 Marsh

41 Lindwall, 42 Trueman, 43 Laker, 44 Gower, 45 Boycott, 46 Fry, 47 Statham, 48 Bobby Simpson, 49 Larwood, 50 Jardine, 51 Aravinda de Silva, 52 Border, 53 Ian Chappell, 54 Bert Sutcliffe, 55 Jack Russell, 56 Jonty Rhodes, 57 Lawry, 58 Walcott, 59 Weekes, 60 Lance Gibbs

61 MacLaren, 62 Underwood, 63 Grimmett, 64 Constantine, 65 Wasim Bari, 66 Willis, 67 Keith Miller, 68 Bedser, 69 Dexter, 70 Cowdrey, 71 Harvey, 72 Thomson, 73 Waqar, 74 Donald, 75 Marshall, 76 Wes Hall, 77 John Reid, 78 Peter May, 79 Greenidge, 80 Geoff Howarth

81 Randall, 82 Kanhai, 83 Javed Miandad, 84 Snow, 85 Ponsford, 86 Ranjitsinhji, 87 Greig, 88 Chandrasekhar, 89 Merv Hughes, 90 Illingworth, 91 Barrington, 92 Tate, 93 Bedi, 94 Martin Crowe, 95 Hanif, 96 Ramadhin, 97 Close, 98 Brearley, 99 Gatting, 100 Kallicharran

Lol Hadlee at 38!

 

[Qlder]

These comparison votes continue to be ridiculous and nothing like the reality when they played.

Let's dismiss Botham's obvious match winning batting skill with 14 centuries, here are the fastest ever pacers to 200 wkts

1. Lillee - 38 Tests
2. Waqar - 38 Tests
3. Steyn - 39 Tests
4. Botham - 41 Tests
5. Marshall - 42 Tests
6. Donald - 42 Tests

It's like everyone on CW has just ignored his early career and thinks he can't bat at #6 and he bowled pies lol

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Geoff Howarth at 80???

Might not have been in NZ's top 50 players of the 20th century (although batted well in the late 70s and was possibly NZ's best captain pre-Fleming).

 

[subshakerz]

These comparison votes continue to be ridiculous and nothing like the reality when they played.

Let's dismiss Botham's obvious match winning batting skill with 14 centuries, here are the fastest ever pacers to 200 wkts

1. Lillee - 38 Tests
2. Waqar - 38 Tests
3. Steyn - 39 Tests
4. Botham - 41 Tests
5. Marshall - 42 Tests
6. Donald - 42 Tests

It's like everyone on CW has just ignored his early career and thinks he can't bat at #6 and he bowled pies lol

We have a bias towards higher levels of specialist skill.

 

[Qlder]

We have a bias towards higher levels of specialist skill.

Being the 4th fastest pacer to 200 wkts in history while batting #6 hitting centuries for fun is a pretty specialist skill imo

 

[peterhrt]

Geoff Howarth at 80???

Might not have been in NZ's top 50 players of the 20th century (although batted well in the late 70s and was possibly NZ's best captain pre-Fleming).

Might have been included for his captaincy, like Jardine, Illingworth and Brearley. Was also always popular in England.

 

[subshakerz]

Lol Hadlee at 38!

Marshall at 75. It's like they forgot he existed and then decided to shoehorn him in.

I am sure @kyear2 will tell us 'Well y'know they aren't underrating him, they must have had their reasons...'

 

[subshakerz]

Being the 4th fastest pacer to 200 wkts in history while batting #6 hitting centuries for fun is a pretty specialist skill imo

His first career half was insane. But he really was bad as his career progressed. And then flopped against WI.

 

[Qlder]

His first career half was insane. But he really was bad as his career progressed. And then flopped against WI.

Yes Botham was insane, then they made him captain to face 10 tests in a row to arguably the greatest team ever. WI were famous for targeting the captain, Kim Hughes another example of a record destroyed by the idiots who thought 10 tests in a row against West Indies was a good idea

 

[peterhrt]

Marshall at 75. It's like they forgot he existed and then decided to shoehorn him in.

I am sure @kyear2 will tell us 'Well y'know they aren't underrating him, they must have had their reasons...'

At least he got in. Unlike Wasim!

 

[subshakerz]

At least he got in. Unlike Wasim!

It's like they decided to list all their favorite cricketers and then argued over the order of the first few before getting drunk and just naming cricketers at the end.

 

[ashley bach]

These comparison votes continue to be ridiculous and nothing like the reality when they played.

Let's dismiss Botham's obvious match winning batting skill with 14 centuries, here are the fastest ever pacers to 200 wkts

1. Lillee - 38 Tests
2. Waqar - 38 Tests
3. Steyn - 39 Tests
4. Botham - 41 Tests
5. Marshall - 42 Tests
6. Donald - 42 Tests

It's like everyone on CW has just ignored his early career and thinks he can't bat at #6 and he bowled pies lol

It's more like everyone on CW just tend to think one player is clearly better than the other tbf

 

[DrWolverine]

Botham’s first 30 test matches was just insane - 152 wickets at an average of 19.47 and SR of 46 and 6 centuries as well.

 

[DrWolverine]

Most 5fers for cricketers with 10+ centuries

1. Botham 27
2. Sobers 6
3. Kallis 5

Most centuries for cricketers with 10+ 5fers

1. Botham 14
2. Kapil 8
3. Imran & Vettori 6

Botham was a match winner with both the bat and ball

 

[kyear2]

Marshall at 75. It's like they forgot he existed and then decided to shoehorn him in.

I am sure @kyear2 will tell us 'Well y'know they aren't underrating him, they must have had their reasons...'

You're missing the primary point.

Most of these lists are ****, ranking players from different disciplines is a bad idea, and literally after the consensus first couple of names, it's a way too subjective and a crap shoot.

And one can look at a list and tell if it makes sense of not.

Again, tour issue is that your guy has to be top 4 or it's a great injustice.

But Gower's, Crowe's, CMJ, those guys were in the middle of it, yet know their stuff from the earlier eras. One might not agree with every pick, but it makes sense.

I'm just glad when Barry's on the list,

 

[sayon basak]

Link to Radio Times list below.

Best cricketers of all time

Our pick of 20 of the greatest male cricketers ever to have played the game

www.radiotimes.com

TMS Top 100 (1999): 1 Bradman, 2 Grace, 3 Hobbs, 4 Sobers, 5 Lara, 6 Botham, 7 Viv Richards, 8 Hutton, 9 Warne, 10 Wilfred Rhodes, 11 Hammond, 12 Gavaskar, 13 Tendulkar, 14 Lillee, 15 Barry Richards, 16 Barnes, 17 Holding, 18 Imran, 19 Compton, 20 O'Reilly

21 Herbert Sutcliffe, 22 Shrewsbury, 23 Headley, 24 Benaud, 25 Kapil Dev, 26 Lohmann, 27 Knott, 28 Steve Waugh, 29 Spofforth, 30 Gooch, 31 Evans. 32 Trumper, 33 Procter, 34 Clive Lloyd, 35 Ambrose, 36 Graeme Pollock, 37 Greg Chappell, 38 Hadlee, 39 Worrell, 40 Marsh

41 Lindwall, 42 Trueman, 43 Laker, 44 Gower, 45 Boycott, 46 Fry, 47 Statham, 48 Bobby Simpson, 49 Larwood, 50 Jardine, 51 Aravinda de Silva, 52 Border, 53 Ian Chappell, 54 Bert Sutcliffe, 55 Jack Russell, 56 Jonty Rhodes, 57 Lawry, 58 Walcott, 59 Weekes, 60 Lance Gibbs

61 MacLaren, 62 Underwood, 63 Grimmett, 64 Constantine, 65 Wasim Bari, 66 Willis, 67 Keith Miller, 68 Bedser, 69 Dexter, 70 Cowdrey, 71 Harvey, 72 Thomson, 73 Waqar, 74 Donald, 75 Marshall, 76 Wes Hall, 77 John Reid, 78 Peter May, 79 Greenidge, 80 Geoff Howarth

81 Randall, 82 Kanhai, 83 Javed Miandad, 84 Snow, 85 Ponsford, 86 Ranjitsinhji, 87 Greig, 88 Chandrasekhar, 89 Merv Hughes, 90 Illingworth, 91 Barrington, 92 Tate, 93 Bedi, 94 Martin Crowe, 95 Hanif, 96 Ramadhin, 97 Close, 98 Brearley, 99 Gatting, 100 Kallicharran

Pretty interesting list, with some eye catching inclutions. I'm gonna post this in a new thread ig.

 

[kyear2]

Most 5fers for cricketers with 10+ centuries

1. Botham 27
2. Sobers 6
3. Kallis 5

Most centuries for cricketers with 10+ 5fers

1. Botham 14
2. Kapil 8
3. Imran & Vettori 6

Botham was a match winner with both the bat and ball

Yes he was, and in the strictest definition of the term, possibly still the best all rounder of the era.

But his fall off wasn't like Viv's and Punter's where they still kept ATG numbers, he just starting digging.

I think one can acknowledge his impact in the era, but still say he wasn't a better cricketer overall than Hadlee.

But yeah, Beefy was probably the ultimate match winner for a while there, and that counts for a lot.

 

[kyear2]

Pretty interesting list, with some eye catching inclutions. I'm gonna post this in a new thread ig.

It's an objectively bad list.

 

[sayon basak]

It's an objectively bad list.

Basically that.

 

[subshakerz]

You're missing the primary point.

Most of these lists are ****, ranking players from different disciplines is a bad idea, and literally after the consensus first couple of names, it's a way too subjective and a crap shoot.

And one can look at a list and tell if it makes sense of not.

Again, tour issue is that your guy has to be top 4 or it's a great injustice.

But Gower's, Crowe's, CMJ, those guys were in the middle of it, yet know their stuff from the earlier eras. One might not agree with every pick, but it makes sense.

I'm just glad when Barry's on the list,

I am talking about all lists as Hadlee is not rated highly in all of them.