Richard Hadlee vs Ian Botham

[kyear2]

This isn't the argument and you know it isn't the argument.

The argument is that, overall as a bat, Imran could make any team of that time in the lower order.

And to demonstrate, I used the best team, WI, where Logie played consistently in the 80s.

But frankly, I don't need WI, I can point to virtually every other team in the 80s that had an Imran level or worse bat consistently playing at no.5/6.

What you are doing is ignoring the standard of that era and forgetting it was a tough time for batters.

Do you think he, was a test standard quality no 6, for the most part of his career?

If you were putting together a team, not ATG or anything of the sort, a test franchise team. Would you feel comfortable batting him consistently at 6? Was that the best pot for him and the team?

And if you would be, then explain why he didn't even do it for his own team, in said era.

Simple questions.

 

[subshakerz]

Do you think he, was a test standard quality no 6, for the most part of his career?

If you were putting together a team, not ATG or anything of the sort, a test franchise team. Would you feel comfortable batting him consistently at 6? Was that the best pot for him and the team?

And if you would be, then explain why he didn't even do it for his own team, in said era.

Simple questions.

Sure. His career transition was starting from a no.8 in the 70s to no. 6/7 in the early to mid 80s to a no.5 middle order level bat in his last few years.

But how are we assessing Imran overall as a bat since he served different positions I would put him at 6 based on batting standards of the era after seeing that teams carried Imran level bats consistently.

So yes, I am comfy with Imran at no.6 in a regular team.

 

[kyear2]

Sure. His career transition was starting from a no.8 in the 70s to no. 6/7 in the early to mid 80s to a no.5 middle order level bat in his last few years.

But how are we assessing Imran overall as a bat since he served different positions I would put him at 6 based on batting standards of the era after seeing that teams carried Imran level bats consistently.

So yes, I am comfy with Imran at no.6 in a regular team.

He batted at five a grad total of four innings in four matches, the same amount of matches he batted at 9.

He batted at 6 less than he batted at 8, and way less than he batted at 7.

So somehow he was better suited and test standard no. 6, but batted there the least during his career, especially when he was bowling. Gotcha.

I'll stick to what I said already, he was a capable no. 7, but better suited for and benefitted the team best at 8, especially with a strong keeper.

What you're saying is like, Sobers opened the bowling, hence he was a test standard opening bowler. He's best suited as a 4th option in a test attack.

 

[subshakerz]

He batted at five a grad total of four innings in four matches, the same amount of matches he batted at 9.

He batted at 6 less than he batted at 8, and way less than he batted at 7.

So somehow he was better suited and test standard no. 6, but batted there the least during his career, especially when he was bowling. Gotcha.

I'll stick to what I said already, he was a capable no. 7, but better suited for and benefitted the team best at 8, especially with a strong keeper.

What you're saying is like, Sobers opened the bowling, hence he was a test standard opening bowler. He's best suited as a 4th option in a test attack.

Why is Imran better suited at 8 if he averaged notably less there? He averaged higher as he moved up the order.

I have described Imran before as a 6/7 bat. Basically, borderline specialist similar to Sobers the bowler. It's only when I checked other teams of the era did I realise the 80s was full of lower order bats of Imrans quality. So I am comfortable seeing him at 6 if the team needed it.

Let's not derail this thread further.

 

[peterhrt]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his mean placing is 52nd. Kallis features in five and places 24th on average.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

 

[Coronis]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his average placing is 52nd.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

I’m sure we could create a whole thread entitled that.

 

[kyear2]

Why is Imran better suited at 8 if he averaged notably less there? He averaged higher as he moved up the order.

I have described Imran before as a 6/7 bat. Basically, borderline specialist similar to Sobers the bowler. It's only when I checked other teams of the era did I realise the 80s was full of lower order bats of Imrans quality. So I am comfortable seeing him at 6 if the team needed it.

Let's not derail this thread further.

Just another topic where we shall agree to disagree.

Don't see how a 7/8 is somehow the greatest insult, considering that where he primarily actually batted.

 

[kyear2]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his mean placing is 52nd. Kallis features in five and places 24th on average.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

Yeah, anything has has Sachin as no. 1, is somewhat of a red flag in terms of quality.

Grace fine, but Tendulkar is stretching it.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, anything has has Sachin as no. 1, is somewhat of a red flag in terms of quality.

Grace fine, but Tendulkar is stretching it.

I mean the site is literally called India Fantasy.

Wouldn’t surprise me in some of those lists if ODIs are included too.