Richard Hadlee vs Ian Botham

[kyear2]

This isn't the argument and you know it isn't the argument.

The argument is that, overall as a bat, Imran could make any team of that time in the lower order.

And to demonstrate, I used the best team, WI, where Logie played consistently in the 80s.

But frankly, I don't need WI, I can point to virtually every other team in the 80s that had an Imran level or worse bat consistently playing at no.5/6.

What you are doing is ignoring the standard of that era and forgetting it was a tough time for batters.

Do you think he, was a test standard quality no 6, for the most part of his career?

If you were putting together a team, not ATG or anything of the sort, a test franchise team. Would you feel comfortable batting him consistently at 6? Was that the best pot for him and the team?

And if you would be, then explain why he didn't even do it for his own team, in said era.

Simple questions.

 

[subshakerz]

Do you think he, was a test standard quality no 6, for the most part of his career?

If you were putting together a team, not ATG or anything of the sort, a test franchise team. Would you feel comfortable batting him consistently at 6? Was that the best pot for him and the team?

And if you would be, then explain why he didn't even do it for his own team, in said era.

Simple questions.

Sure. His career transition was starting from a no.8 in the 70s to no. 6/7 in the early to mid 80s to a no.5 middle order level bat in his last few years.

But how are we assessing Imran overall as a bat since he served different positions I would put him at 6 based on batting standards of the era after seeing that teams carried Imran level bats consistently.

So yes, I am comfy with Imran at no.6 in a regular team.

 

[kyear2]

Sure. His career transition was starting from a no.8 in the 70s to no. 6/7 in the early to mid 80s to a no.5 middle order level bat in his last few years.

But how are we assessing Imran overall as a bat since he served different positions I would put him at 6 based on batting standards of the era after seeing that teams carried Imran level bats consistently.

So yes, I am comfy with Imran at no.6 in a regular team.

He batted at five a grad total of four innings in four matches, the same amount of matches he batted at 9.

He batted at 6 less than he batted at 8, and way less than he batted at 7.

So somehow he was better suited and test standard no. 6, but batted there the least during his career, especially when he was bowling. Gotcha.

I'll stick to what I said already, he was a capable no. 7, but better suited for and benefitted the team best at 8, especially with a strong keeper.

What you're saying is like, Sobers opened the bowling, hence he was a test standard opening bowler. He's best suited as a 4th option in a test attack.

 

[subshakerz]

He batted at five a grad total of four innings in four matches, the same amount of matches he batted at 9.

He batted at 6 less than he batted at 8, and way less than he batted at 7.

So somehow he was better suited and test standard no. 6, but batted there the least during his career, especially when he was bowling. Gotcha.

I'll stick to what I said already, he was a capable no. 7, but better suited for and benefitted the team best at 8, especially with a strong keeper.

What you're saying is like, Sobers opened the bowling, hence he was a test standard opening bowler. He's best suited as a 4th option in a test attack.

Why is Imran better suited at 8 if he averaged notably less there? He averaged higher as he moved up the order.

I have described Imran before as a 6/7 bat. Basically, borderline specialist similar to Sobers the bowler. It's only when I checked other teams of the era did I realise the 80s was full of lower order bats of Imrans quality. So I am comfortable seeing him at 6 if the team needed it.

Let's not derail this thread further.

 

[peterhrt]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his mean placing is 52nd. Kallis features in five and places 24th on average.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

 

[Coronis]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his average placing is 52nd.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

I’m sure we could create a whole thread entitled that.

 

[kyear2]

Why is Imran better suited at 8 if he averaged notably less there? He averaged higher as he moved up the order.

I have described Imran before as a 6/7 bat. Basically, borderline specialist similar to Sobers the bowler. It's only when I checked other teams of the era did I realise the 80s was full of lower order bats of Imrans quality. So I am comfortable seeing him at 6 if the team needed it.

Let's not derail this thread further.

Just another topic where we shall agree to disagree.

Don't see how a 7/8 is somehow the greatest insult, considering that where he primarily actually batted.

 

[kyear2]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his mean placing is 52nd. Kallis features in five and places 24th on average.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

Yeah, anything has has Sachin as no. 1, is somewhat of a red flag in terms of quality.

Grace fine, but Tendulkar is stretching it.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, anything has has Sachin as no. 1, is somewhat of a red flag in terms of quality.

Grace fine, but Tendulkar is stretching it.

I mean the site is literally called India Fantasy.

Wouldn’t surprise me in some of those lists if ODIs are included too.

 

[subshakerz]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

Average ranking of the four 1980s all-rounders: Imran 14th, Botham 15th, Hadlee 23rd, Kapil Dev 31st. Procter appears in only four of the lists where his mean placing is 52nd. Kallis features in five and places 24th on average.

Sobers' average ranking is third. He is always behind Bradman and on various occasions also behind Grace, Tendulkar, Hobbs, Viv Richards and Warne. In fact only in the Wisden list is he as high as second. Tendulkar is number one on India Fantasy and several other Indian sites.

@kyear2 are you going to pretend Hadlee wasn't underrated then?

 

[subshakerz]

Just did a quick search of greatest all-time cricketers lists. Eight so far: Wisden, The Times (Woodcock), Christopher Martin-Jenkins, Geoff Armstrong (Australian), TMS, Radio Times, India Fantasy and an American website brokencricketdreams.com.

I wouldn't put random websites with fan votes with pundit lists.

Can also add ESPN cricketers of the century, Wisden cricketers of the century and Scyld Berrys top 40 list.

 

[sayon basak]

@peterhrt could you please provide the TMS and Radio times list? I could not find them.

Wisden:-

Five cricketers of the century

The selection of Wisden's Five Cricketers of the Year has always been the perquisite of the Almanack's editor of the day

search.app

John Woodcock:-

John Woodcock's 100 Greatest Cricketers

I don't think John Woodcock's 100 Greatest Cricketers list was reviewed in cricketweb.As this list was made in 1997, there are a lot of ancient players in this list. Some of the picks were a surprise for me, was Alfred Mynn regarded that high at that time? Here's the list:- 100 JR Reid 99 PA...

search.app

Christopher Martin-Jenkins:-

CMJ's Top 100 Cricketers of All Time

Interesting read this. No surprises with number 1. Don Bradman's star would shine in any era - Times Online 1 Don Bradman From the late 1920s until his retirement in 1949, the greatest of all specialist batsmen had a wider role as a hero of popular culture and the unwitting symbol and unifier of ...

search.app

Geoff Armstrong:-

Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

Unsure if this book by Armstrong was reviewed on CW ever, but this thread stems from a discussion in the random auction draft about Martin Crowe not being included in Armstrong's list of 100 cricketers. Armstrong selects who he considers to be the 100 greatest, and then places them in 9 teams...

search.app

India Fantasy:-

100 Greatest Cricketers of All Time

100 Greatest Cricketers of All Time: These players played in different eras but were at the top of their game. Check out the lis

search.app

Brokencricketdreams:-

155 Greatest Cricketers of All Time (Men's): Who are the Best Players in Cricket History? (Updated 2023) | Broken Cricket Dreams Cricket Blog

The Ultimate Cricket List - Top 150 Greatest Cricketers of All Time across formats and eras. From WG Grace to Kieron Pollard.

search.app

Here are three other lists:-
David Gower:-

David Gower's Top 50 Cricketers of All Time

1. Don Bradman 2. Garry Sobers 3. Sachin Tendulkar 4. Shane Warne 5. Viv Richards 6. Brian Lara 7. Jack Hobbs 8. Wally Hammond 9. Malcolm Marshall 10. W.G. Grace 11. Imran Khan 12. Ian Botham 13. Sydney Barnes 14. Jacques Kallis 15. Barry Richards 16. Dennis Lillee 17. Len Hutton 18. Wilfred...

search.app

Martin Crowe:-

Martin Crowe's Top 50 Greatest Cricketers of Six Generations

Don't think this list was discussed in CW. So here's the list:- 1877-1900: WG Grace 1900-1930: Jack Hobbs, Herbert Sutcliffe, Victor Trumper, Sydney Barnes (4) 1930-1950: Don Bradman, Len Hutton, George Headley, Wally Hammond, Alec Bedser, Bill O'Reilly, Clarrie Grimmett (7) 1950-1970: Keith...

search.app

And obviously,
Cricketweb:-

CW's 100 greatest players result | 2024

Thanks @capt_Luffy for giving us the top 100 list. Rank Players 1 Don Bradman 2 Garry Sobers 3 Imran Khan 4 W G Grace 5 Sachin Tendulkar 6 Richard Hadlee 7 Jack Hobbs 8 Malcolm Marshall 9 Viv Richards 10 Glenn McGrath 11 Shane Warne 12 Mutthiah Muralitharan 13...

search.app

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I'd say I'd go for Botham as he was a better bat and a far better fielder, one of the greatest slip fielders we have seen. Not much in it though and probably got some national bias for this one.

Hadlee was better for longer though.

 

[subshakerz]

@peterhrt could you please provide the TMS and Radio times list? I could not find them.

Wisden:-

Five cricketers of the century

The selection of Wisden's Five Cricketers of the Year has always been the perquisite of the Almanack's editor of the day

search.app

John Woodcock:-

John Woodcock's 100 Greatest Cricketers

I don't think John Woodcock's 100 Greatest Cricketers list was reviewed in cricketweb.As this list was made in 1997, there are a lot of ancient players in this list. Some of the picks were a surprise for me, was Alfred Mynn regarded that high at that time? Here's the list:- 100 JR Reid 99 PA...

search.app

Christopher Martin-Jenkins:-

CMJ's Top 100 Cricketers of All Time

Interesting read this. No surprises with number 1. Don Bradman's star would shine in any era - Times Online 1 Don Bradman From the late 1920s until his retirement in 1949, the greatest of all specialist batsmen had a wider role as a hero of popular culture and the unwitting symbol and unifier of ...

search.app

Geoff Armstrong:-

Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

Unsure if this book by Armstrong was reviewed on CW ever, but this thread stems from a discussion in the random auction draft about Martin Crowe not being included in Armstrong's list of 100 cricketers. Armstrong selects who he considers to be the 100 greatest, and then places them in 9 teams...

search.app

India Fantasy:-

100 Greatest Cricketers of All Time

100 Greatest Cricketers of All Time: These players played in different eras but were at the top of their game. Check out the lis

search.app

Brokencricketdreams:-

155 Greatest Cricketers of All Time (Men's): Who are the Best Players in Cricket History? (Updated 2023) | Broken Cricket Dreams Cricket Blog

The Ultimate Cricket List - Top 150 Greatest Cricketers of All Time across formats and eras. From WG Grace to Kieron Pollard.

search.app

Here are three other lists:-
David Gower:-

David Gower's Top 50 Cricketers of All Time

1. Don Bradman 2. Garry Sobers 3. Sachin Tendulkar 4. Shane Warne 5. Viv Richards 6. Brian Lara 7. Jack Hobbs 8. Wally Hammond 9. Malcolm Marshall 10. W.G. Grace 11. Imran Khan 12. Ian Botham 13. Sydney Barnes 14. Jacques Kallis 15. Barry Richards 16. Dennis Lillee 17. Len Hutton 18. Wilfred...

search.app

Martin Crowe:-

Martin Crowe's Top 50 Greatest Cricketers of Six Generations

Don't think this list was discussed in CW. So here's the list:- 1877-1900: WG Grace 1900-1930: Jack Hobbs, Herbert Sutcliffe, Victor Trumper, Sydney Barnes (4) 1930-1950: Don Bradman, Len Hutton, George Headley, Wally Hammond, Alec Bedser, Bill O'Reilly, Clarrie Grimmett (7) 1950-1970: Keith...

search.app

And obviously,
Cricketweb:-

CW's 100 greatest players result | 2024

Thanks @capt_Luffy for giving us the top 100 list. Rank Players 1 Don Bradman 2 Garry Sobers 3 Imran Khan 4 W G Grace 5 Sachin Tendulkar 6 Richard Hadlee 7 Jack Hobbs 8 Malcolm Marshall 9 Viv Richards 10 Glenn McGrath 11 Shane Warne 12 Mutthiah Muralitharan 13...

search.app

Scyld Berry:

Scyld Berry's 40 best cricketers of last 40 years - find out who is number one here

This summer marks 40 years since the Telegraph's cricket correspondent Scyld Berry started covering the sport.

www.telegraph.co.uk

ESPN Cricketers of the Century:

ESPN's Legends of Cricket

ESPN's Legends of Cricket was a 2001 television series produced by ESPN which asked a panel of several judges to rank who they felt, were the 50 best cricketers ever. Individual episodes were produced featuring the top 25 ranked players. The panel consisted of Wasim Akram, Sunil Gavaskar, Richie...

cricket.fandom.com

 

[DrWolverine]

Yeah, anything has has Sachin as no. 1, is somewhat of a red flag in terms of quality.

If Bradman isn’t number one, it is a huge red flag

Grace fine, but Tendulkar is stretching it.

Maybe the most important figure in cricket. But including him as one of the greatest ever doesn’t sit right with me.

 

[kyear2]

@kyear2 are you going to pretend Hadlee wasn't underrated then?

Ashwin, Sangakkara.

It's entirely possible that because he played primarily in that triangle close to home that he was viewed the same as those other two in his era?

Could be that he wasn't the best of the all-rounders, wasn't the best bowler of the era? Did he have that signature series abroad? Was he impactful or accumulated stats? Yes he averaged 27, but were they impactful or match winning efforts?

Or it could be that rating batsmen, bowlers and all rounders together is a crap shoot and fraught with danger.

In 40 years will people know why Sanga isn't rates higher than Sachin? Why Ashwin isn't rated with Warne and Murali?

But in any event he was on all of the lists, and probably everyone doesn't automatically rate bowling all rounders as high as some here do?

As a cricketer I have him fairly highly, but can see arguments to have him lower than Richards, Warne, Tendulkar, Hutton, McGrath etc etc.

Ok, so looking through the lists, and I'll include Imran's rankings as well, because we both know that's what it's really about.

Woodcocks list is garbage, so need to delve into that.

Armstrong's, Hadlee made the 2nd team, so top 22, Imran the first. No arguments there I presume.

CMJ's list. Hadlee was 24th, and Imran 14th. While I don't agree with every name he has above Hadlee, most of the bowlers named were the no. 1 in the world at various times, Hadlee never was. Imran was 14th. While there are two names I don't agree with, all of the others have an argument to be above him.

The Indian fantasy's name speaks volumes and is also ignored.

Gower's list is somewhat similar. Hadlee is 24th and Imran 11th.

But again, none of the names are crazy, even if we disagree.

At the end of the day, rating players of different disciplines is a Cluster**** and not everyone combines stats. So out side of the top 2/ 3 (depending on where you come down on Grace) it's really a mess, and the only one thing that I think everyone would agree on is that Warne is over rated as hell, lol. But hell, it's possible to the "experts" that he's the leader and match winner of that team that I peg McGrath to be. And winning and impact and being the best matters.

 

[subshakerz]

But in any event he was on all of the lists, and probably everyone doesn't automatically rate bowling all rounders as high as some here do?

As a cricketer I have him fairly highly, but can see arguments to have him lower than Richards, Warne, Tendulkar, Hutton, McGrath etc etc.

Ok, so looking through the lists, and I'll include Imran's rankings as well, because we both know that's what it's really about.

Woodcocks list is garbage, so need to delve into that.

Armstrong's, Hadlee made the 2nd team, so top 22, Imran the first. No arguments there I presume.

CMJ's list. Hadlee was 24th, and Imran 14th. While I don't agree with every name he has above Hadlee, most of the bowlers named were the no. 1 in the world at various times, Hadlee never was. Imran was 14th. While there are two names I don't agree with, all of the others have an argument to be above him.

The Indian fantasy's name speaks volumes and is also ignored.

Gower's list is somewhat similar. Hadlee is 24th and Imran 11th.

But again, none of the names are crazy, even if we disagree.

At the end of the day, rating players of different disciplines is a Cluster**** and not everyone combines stats. So out side of the top 2/ 3 (depending on where you come down on Grace) it's really a mess, and the only one thing that I think everyone would agree on is that Warne is over rated as hell, lol. But hell, it's possible to the "experts" that he's the leader and match winner of that team that I peg McGrath to be. And winning and impact and being the best matters.

It sounds like you agree Hadlee was underrated, or am I reading you wrong?

 

[sayon basak]

Scyld Berry:

Scyld Berry's 40 best cricketers of last 40 years - find out who is number one here

This summer marks 40 years since the Telegraph's cricket correspondent Scyld Berry started covering the sport.

www.telegraph.co.uk

ESPN Cricketers of the Century:

ESPN's Legends of Cricket

ESPN's Legends of Cricket was a 2001 television series produced by ESPN which asked a panel of several judges to rank who they felt, were the 50 best cricketers ever. Individual episodes were produced featuring the top 25 ranked players. The panel consisted of Wasim Akram, Sunil Gavaskar, Richie...

cricket.fandom.com

Do you have the TMS and Radio times list?

 

[kyear2]

Scyld Berry:

Scyld Berry's 40 best cricketers of last 40 years - find out who is number one here

This summer marks 40 years since the Telegraph's cricket correspondent Scyld Berry started covering the sport.

www.telegraph.co.uk

ESPN Cricketers of the Century:

ESPN's Legends of Cricket

ESPN's Legends of Cricket was a 2001 television series produced by ESPN which asked a panel of several judges to rank who they felt, were the 50 best cricketers ever. Individual episodes were produced featuring the top 25 ranked players. The panel consisted of Wasim Akram, Sunil Gavaskar, Richie...

cricket.fandom.com

 

[subshakerz]

Do you have the TMS and Radio times list?

No but there is a BBC vote list

BBC - The Greatest Cricketer of All Time – your votes revealed!

You voted for your favourite from a list 30 all-time greatest cricketers.

www.bbc.co.uk