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Rest of the World XIs to play Australia

Cloete

International Captain
Tim said:
It kinda went like this:

In 1992-1995 we had Rod Latham, Gavin Larsen, Deepak Patel showing they could do a bit of bowling & also some batting

Between 1995 & 2000 we basically had the one genuine all-rounder in Chris Cairns, the rest including Astle, Harris, Shane Thomson, Matthew Hart etc were all 'bits & pieces' players, although arguably Astle has developed into something more than that now.

And currently in the present, I think NZ actually have a pool of proper all-rounders..by that I mean players who actually can bowl with pace & can average more than 20 with the bat. We've still got Harris, Styris, Astle hanging around..but they play a much lesser role than they would have 5 years ago.
Infact Chris Harris is lucky if he gets a bowl these days, which is interesting considering NZ couldn't live without his bowling a few years back.
matthew hart!! that's who i was thinking of. but yeah your pool of all-rounders is exceptional. alot of the time it's an all-rounder that will win you the match. batting lower down in the order or playing a vital bowling role. also is there a young all-rounder called Alex Tate (or sometihng like that)?
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Alex Tait is awesome in International Cricket Captain!, its just unfortunate that he disappeared off the face of the earth about 3 years ago.

Basically Tait was very much in a similar mould to Scott Styris, but I think right now he's only 27 or 28 so im not really sure why he suddenly gave cricket away.

That might be a question that I put forward to the Northern Districts Cricket Association because I thought he was going to be a good allrounder for NZ.
 

Cloete

International Captain
Tim said:
Alex Tait is awesome in International Cricket Captain!, its just unfortunate that he disappeared off the face of the earth about 3 years ago.

Basically Tait was very much in a similar mould to Scott Styris, but I think right now he's only 27 or 28 so im not really sure why he suddenly gave cricket away.

That might be a question that I put forward to the Northern Districts Cricket Association because I thought he was going to be a good allrounder for NZ.
ok. quite a strange case then i guess. quite unfortunate.
 

Neil Pickup

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Tim said:
NZ probably have the biggest pool of all-rounders in world cricket at the moment..Cairns, Adams, Mills, Oram & theres more like Tama Canning & James Franklin who have hardly played any international cricket.
SA have Pollock, Kallis, Boucher (cough), Kemp, Kent, Rudolph (cough), Hall... runs you pretty close
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Mr. Ponting said:
Flintoff isnt that great! He struggles to make the English team, let alone the world team! How long ago was it that the selectors were about to get rid of him? A couple of tests by my memory..
You what - he doesn't struggle to make the English team and his current form is better than almost all.

At no point was his place seriously under threat.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Rik said:
I don't feel Flintoff is good enough to be put down as 4th seamer in any team except Zimbabwe and Bangladesh at the moment
Interesting that - so in your opinion he's not good enough for England then?


I wonder how many sides would not select him in a number 6/7 and 4th seamer role? Not many would be my guess since he keeps it tight (and as a 4th seamer the job is not always to take wickets, especially with spinners around)


Looking down the International sides, there's not many who wouldn't take him in that role with that strategy (4 seam and 1 spin)
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
I would say that a couple of years ago South Africa for quality were far better than NZ..but South Africa's group of allrounders are ageing whereas NZ's are still fairly young, excluding Harris & Cairns.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Tait would of gave cricket away for business reasons I guess. I dont think Rudolph counts as an all-rounder since he hardly bowls except on a few occasions.

Marc,

The reason why I brought up Giles is that of your support for him despite that he is useless.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Craig said:
The reason why I brought up Giles is that of your support for him despite that he is useless.
Useless?

He's England's top spinner, and in helpful conditions has a very good record (in Asia he averages about 2 more than Warne)

Hardly useless.
 

Rik

Cricketer Of The Year
marc71178 said:
Useless?

He's England's top spinner, and in helpful conditions has a very good record (in Asia he averages about 2 more than Warne)

Hardly useless.
Maybe not useless, but he usually averages 50+ in most home series, hardly "useful"
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Wasn't Giles the infamous spinner who used leg side tactics against India?

i'd prefer to see a spinner back himself rather than kill what could be a very good contest.
 

Top_Cat

Request Your Custom Title Now!
NZ probably have the biggest pool of all-rounders in world cricket at the moment..Cairns, Adams, Mills, Oram & theres more like Tama Canning & James Franklin who have hardly played any international cricket.
Errrm, Chris Cairns and Kyle Mills could definately be called allrounders but I think calling Oram, Adams and Franklin the same is stretching the truth a bit. Oram and Adams can hold a bat a bit but they are (especially considering their records) bowlers for most intents and purposes. Good hitters of the ball but not allrounders under most definitions. Franklin is even less of a bat than those two. I'd never have any of them bat above number 8 in any NZ side.

Compare that to Pollock, Kallis, Hall, Flintoff and White and you see the distinction between 'allrounders' and 'guys who are bowlers but show some hitting potential with the bat'.

If anything, NZ's own over-inflated views of players they call 'allrounders' has been a big reason why they tend to struggle, especially in Tests. Guys are picked to play roles they simply can't do and this results in too many bits and pieces players and not enough specialists. I mean Jacob Oram batting at 7 in his Test career thusfar is ludicrous. As I said, he hits the ball VERY well but he's a number 8 at best. If you put him at 7, you effectively say he's a better batsman than Craig White or Andrew Hall. Anyone who's seen them bat would know who has the greater batting talent.

Also, some will point out that Oram has hit a couple of international 50's but so have Brett Lee, Shane Warne, Paul Reiffell and Andy Bichel (to use an Aussie example). Would anyone call them allrounders? Go ahead, I double dare anyone to do it and be credible! :D

I've also heard of Bond being mentioned in the potential allrounders category. Yah, whatever.........Again, he hits the ball well but he's firmly a bowler. This obsession with having more allrounders than anyone else I damaging to NZ cricket.

Chris Cairns has been the only allrounder of note in NZ since Hadlee and these guys don't look like they're going to change that much at all. If I were coach, I'd be advising Oram, Bond and Adams to work on their bowling because they have shown thusfar that they are very good BOWLERS and could potentially be quite a potent bowling attack if allowed to develop properly. But no, instead people want to ****fart around with these guys and turn them into allrounders, like the Aussies have finally given up on doing with Symonds. Adams particularly has some real talent with the ball and it's being wasted.

So yeah, enough of the "we've got more allrounders than anybody else" stuff because whilst there are guys who are considered allrounders in their country, when it comes to the crunch, they get found out and it's hampering the development of a team which has so much potential.
 
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Bazza

International 12th Man
I think that's a good point. Gloucestershire had great success in OD cricket under John Bracewell incidentally, but never put much together in the championship because they have too many bits and pieces 'allrounders'.

Batsmen who can bowl and bowlers who can bat are handy, but no substitute for quality bats and bowlers. As Australia prove it's better to have seven bats who can average 50 than nine guys who average 30 and about eight bowlers.

Re the criticism of Giles, who was the last English spinner with a decent track record in England? Phil Tufnell took 48 wickets at 29 in 12 tests. Before that you're looking at Underwood maybe, which apart from going back to the 70s I believe he's been labelled as more of a medium pacer?

Finally everyone always goes on about how good Cairns was, Pollock has a much better track record. Cairns was classy and maybe injuries robbed us of a great, but Pollock and Kallis are the only genuine allrounders in world cricket for me at the moment.

Flintoff is getting there and Hall could be, but I can't see many others.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
i'll agree with Corey to be honest. I made some points where I probably went over the top a little.

However im sure that a couple of years ago Corey, that you would have said the same things about Flintoff that you are saying about Oram.

I feel Oram is getting to the point where he's either going to make or break himself as an all-rounder.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Of course Pollock has been better than Cairns but then again Pollock has never been plagued by vast amount of injuries that Cairns has had.

If Cairns had stayed injury free, could he have been better than Pollock? we'll never know now.
 

Craig

World Traveller
To me, Andre Adams looks like a poor man's version of Chris Cairns. Similar abilities, but Adams isnt that good compared to Cairns.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
At FC level..Adams could probably get away with being an all-rounder but at international level, he's more of a #9 batsman.

I think NZ need to realise that they should only use him as a bowler, and that the fact that on occassions he can go berzerk with the bat is just an added bonus.
 

Neil Pickup

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Bazza said:
Before that you're looking at Underwood maybe, which apart from going back to the 70s I believe he's been labelled as more of a medium pacer?
Yes, but that was by Chris Hinton...
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Tim said:
Wasn't Giles the infamous spinner who used leg side tactics against India?

i'd prefer to see a spinner back himself rather than kill what could be a very good contest.
Well seeing as that tactic worked exactly as planned (frustrated SRT and led to him being stumped) - and he was bowling to captain's orders, I don't see what was wrong with it?
 

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