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Ravichandran Ashwin vs Kapil Dev

Who is the greater test cricketer?


  • Total voters
    32

capt_Luffy

International Captain
and they were horrible
Yeah, but so were anyone after Dev not named Srinath and Zaheer till the mid 2010s. Bowlers like Prasad, Irfan, Ishant (youngster, not post resurgence), RP, Sreesanth, etc were serviceable in windows but hardly compatible for that stage. Only from the time Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant 2.0 came together that India had a good pace attack.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Yeah, but so were anyone after Dev not named Srinath and Zaheer till the mid 2010s. Bowlers like Prasad, Irfan, Ishant (youngster, not post resurgence), RP, Sreesanth, etc were serviceable in windows but hardly compatible for that stage. Only from the time Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant 2.0 came together that India had a good pace attack.
Big difference between Prasad, Oftan, Oshant? RP, Munaf, Nehra, Sreesanth and Ramayana Desai or Kharsan Ghavri
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Big difference between Prasad, Oftan, Oshant? RP, Munaf, Nehra, Sreesanth and Ramayana Desai or Kharsan Ghavri
No difference honestly. Forced to pick I will go Ghavri, Prasad, Desai, Irfan, Sreesanth (not counting Ishant).
 

ma1978

International Debutant
No difference honestly. Forced to pick I will go Ghavri, Prasad, Desai, Irfan, Sreesanth (not counting Ishant).
it’s sad how little you know about cricket and yet you post incessantly

irfan and Sreesanth have won India matches, Ghavri and Desai were non factors
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
it’s sad how little you know about cricket and yet you post incessantly

irfan and Sreesanth have won India matches, Ghavri and Desai were non factors
It's tragic that I engage in conversations with you. Let's put each other on ignore, will be better for the forum atmosphere.
 

Johan

State Regular
it’s sad how little you know about cricket and yet you post incessantly

irfan and Sreesanth have won India matches, Ghavri and Desai were non factors
don't know about Desai but Ghavri had a clutch and match deciding 4fer at Wankedhe in 79
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
don't know about Desai but Ghavri had a clutch and match deciding 4fer at Wankedhe in 79
The best I can say about Desai is wasted potential. Was the first pacer after independence, and India had no idea about using him. Totally ran down to the ground.
 

Bolo.

International Captain
You totally exclude all context.

A quicker scorer sets up the match, makes things easier and takes pressure off the batsmen to follow. The bowling and fielding plans have been adjusted at best, the bolwers are on to plan B and C and are off their lines, the field has been changed and the rotation has been altered. The bolwing team is also further behind the game and quicker at that. Say Sutcliffe and Hutton stays at the crease for an hour compared to say Richards and Richards, who puts the opponents further behind the game?

Slower scores gets out early as well btw, but an hour of Viv and Barry is preferential for most batting teams, but if most bowling teams had the choice between an hour of either combo, which are they choosing?


I don't know what you deem to be safe, but I've seen Root put down his fair share of crucial chances, but it would be instructional for you to give a couple examples of who you deem to be safe.

We disagree on the numbers quoted, but each drop is a wicket missed, literally. That drop could be Bradman or Hobbs, and the game is changed.

The great teams of Aus, The WI nor SA are not the same without the slip cordons that they had. Not every game were romps vs over matched opponents, the death rows made a significant difference.

I am consistently surprised how differently we see the same sport.
It's not an hour of Richards/Richards vs an hour of Hutton/Sutcliffe that you need to compare. It's 1 hour vs nearly 2. You have to look at balls per dismissal as well.

That's an hour of bowlers tiring, the ball getting older, getting to bowl at worse bat(s), not having a settled partnership that functions as well together, not having bats with their eye in etc.

There are psychological advantages to hitting bowlers off their attack plans. And psychological advantages to grinding them off plans. I think hitting them off plans will probably be valuable more often psychologically, but enough to outweigh all the above?

I really don't think you can generalize to faster striking is better or worse, at all. You can point to games that have had results swung by blockathons/swinging, but these will kinda balance out. And the number is so few that a perspective on SRs shouldn't be based on them. And you can generalize to some degree through stuff like batting position. But we are generally comparing upper middle bats anyway, who it doesn't really apply to.

How fast you strike is totally dependent on game context, and I think it is typically not clear which is better even when watching a game.
 

kyear2

International Coach
It's not an hour of Richards/Richards vs an hour of Hutton/Sutcliffe that you need to compare. It's 1 hour vs nearly 2. You have to look at balls per dismissal as well.

That's an hour of bowlers tiring, the ball getting older, getting to bowl at worse bat(s), not having a settled partnership that functions as well together, not having bats with their eye in etc.

There are psychological advantages to hitting bowlers off their attack plans. And psychological advantages to grinding them off plans. I think hitting them off plans will probably be valuable more often psychologically, but enough to outweigh all the above?

I really don't think you can generalize to faster striking is better or worse, at all. You can point to games that have had results swung by blockathons/swinging, but these will kinda balance out. And the number is so few that a perspective on SRs shouldn't be based on them. And you can generalize to some degree through stuff like batting position. But we are generally comparing upper middle bats anyway, who it doesn't really apply to.

How fast you strike is totally dependent on game context, and I think it is typically not clear which is better even when watching a game.
The premise that we're comparing one hour to nearly two isn't always an accurate one. Batsmen of all s/r get out early on occasion, and all have the chance to get a good one and depart the scene.

I'm also not saying there's no benefit to having a grafter in your team, my AT one has in Hutton for that role, but that's the exception and because one anchor can be of benefit.

You still literally and deliberately didn't answer the questions put forward. It's not only a psychological advantage it's also quite real world and practical as well. I specifically referenced having to alter game plans, change rotations and have more defensive lines and fields, also providing less opportunities to take wickets. You hit the best two opposing bolwers out of the attack and you get more of the 2nd string, and force you to go deeper into your depth chart, no. 5 or 6 likely having to bowl more.

The last paragraph is of particular importance with regards to my point, you want someone who can adjust as necessary. Adopt a defensive or cautious posture when the situation calls for it, and being able to put your foot on your opponents necks and take them out of the game when again, the situation calls for it.

The thought process that the latter has little to no value, or that batsmen capable of scoring faster in all conditions don't bring anything additional to the game or requires greater skill is a fallacy.

I also note that you didn't try to defend the other (fielding) point, because quite frankly made no sense.

I just want to make clear though, not saying that there no place in the game for players who can save your hide when **** has hit the fan, or can grind out an innings. The Dravid's, Boycotts and Barrington's have their place. My only argument is that the guys capable of destroying attacks can not only do that as required as well, but that there's added value in having someone who can do it and, it does require that special genius to be able to do so.
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
The premise that we're comparing one hour to nearly two isn't always an accurate one. Batsmen of all s/r get out early on occasion, and all have the chance to get a good one and depart the scene.

I'm also not saying there's no benefit to having a grafter in your team, my AT one has in Hutton for that role, but that's the exception and because one anchor can be of benefit.

You still literally and deliberately didn't answer the questions put forward. It's not only a psychological advantage it's also quite real world and practical as well. I specifically referenced having to alter game plans, change rotations and have more defensive lines and fields, also providing less opportunities to take wickets. You hit the best two opposing bolwers out of the attack and you get more of the 2nd string, and force you to go deeper into your depth chart, no. 5 or 6 likely having to bowl more.

The last paragraph is of particular importance with regards to my point, you want someone who can adjust as necessary. Adopt a defensive or cautious posture when the situation calls for it, and being able to put your foot on your opponents necks and take them out of the game when again, the situation calls for it.

The thought process that the latter has little to no value, or that batsmen capable of scoring faster in all conditions don't bring anything additional to the game or requires greater skill is a fallacy.

I also note that you didn't try to defend the other (fielding) point, because quite frankly made no sense.

I just want to make clear though, not saying that there no place in the game for players who can save your hide when **** has hit the fan, or can grind out an innings. The Dravid's, Boycotts and Barrington's have their place. My only argument is that the guys capable of destroying attacks can not only do that as required as well, but that there's added value in having someone who can do it a d it does require that special genius to be able to do so.
Inherently dishonest in this case given two batsmen have similar averages and way different SR, one of them, in general, bats for much longer. For instance, Sutcliffe batted as long as Bradman. It is what made Don Bradman, he batted as long as defensive midgets (Sutcliffe) and scored as fast as sloggers (McCabe).

Again, not buying. On most situations they won't. The defensive ones will. And if you want to say Ponting can defend, I will say Dravid can attack as well.
 

Coronis

International Coach
The thought process that the latter has little to no value, or that batsmen capable of scoring faster in all conditions don't bring anything additional to the game or requires greater skill is a fallacy.
I’m pretty sure that Bolo didn’t say that.

I’m pretty sure what I’ve always been saying and what he’s saying is that both methods bring their own value, and neither is inherently greater than the other. Whilst you seem to think one provides far more value and ignore the value of the other. (which is ironic, considering that’s what you accuse others of doing)
 

Bolo.

International Captain
The premise that we're comparing one hour to nearly two isn't always an accurate one. Batsmen of all s/r get out early on occasion, and all have the chance to get a good one and depart the scene.

I'm also not saying there's no benefit to having a grafter in your team, my AT one has in Hutton for that role, but that's the exception and because one anchor can be of benefit.

You still literally and deliberately didn't answer the questions put forward. It's not only a psychological advantage it's also quite real world and practical as well. I specifically referenced having to alter game plans, change rotations and have more defensive lines and fields, also providing less opportunities to take wickets. You hit the best two opposing bolwers out of the attack and you get more of the 2nd string, and force you to go deeper into your depth chart, no. 5 or 6 likely having to bowl more.

The last paragraph is of particular importance with regards to my point, you want someone who can adjust as necessary. Adopt a defensive or cautious posture when the situation calls for it, and being able to put your foot on your opponents necks and take them out of the game when again, the situation calls for it.

The thought process that the latter has little to no value, or that batsmen capable of scoring faster in all conditions don't bring anything additional to the game or requires greater skill is a fallacy.

I also note that you didn't try to defend the other (fielding) point, because quite frankly made no sense.

I just want to make clear though, not saying that there no place in the game for players who can save your hide when **** has hit the fan, or can grind out an innings. The Dravid's, Boycotts and Barrington's have their place. My only argument is that the guys capable of destroying attacks can not only do that as required as well, but that there's added value in having someone who can do it and, it does require that special genius to be able to do so.
Bats with higher averages also get out for less than ones with lower average. Do you want to ignore the difference between bats when one averages double the other as well?

Hitting a bowler off a plan is psychological. Like grinding them off one. A bowler doesn't need to stop setting the fields/ bowling the balls that will get them the cheapest wickets in either case.

For every time you hit the best bowlers out of the attack, there will be two times that you get out to them, giving them all the non-psychological advatages I've listed. If you can, you are better off seeing off the best bowlers and tonking the worst. Getting their SRs down is terrible, because their averages are better.

Facing more balls also takes more skill and offers advantages.

I'm not addressing your fielding point because it's not relevant to what I'm saying.

OFC you want someone who can adapt. But adaption works both ways, and with the exception of the odd blockaton, a lot of people ignore this. You are better off scoring at least pretty slowly in the vast majority of low scores for example. It may not represent a big swing per innings, but it's still most innings.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Inherently dishonest in this case given two batsmen have similar averages and way different SR, one of them, in general, bats for much longer. For instance, Sutcliffe batted as long as Bradman. It is what made Don Bradman, he batted as long as defensive midgets (Sutcliffe) and scored as fast as sloggers (McCabe).

Again, not buying. On most situations they won't. The defensive ones will. And if you want to say Ponting can defend, I will say Dravid can attack as well.
I'm saying against a quality attack, and if both combos spend at hour at the pitch, which is more beneficial to a batting team and sets up / takes away the game.

Which requires more skill and that touch if genius that's so often discussed.

Which more alters game plans, lines, rotation, field settings and results.

There's aa reason that when Richards and Bradman are mentioned that it references scoring a hundred before lunch of a triple in a day. It's special, it's hard, and it sets up your team for success.

I'm not talking about mindless swiping or FTBs, I'm talking about players capable of accelerating as required.

Think someone mentioned how if Dravid or Boycott filled the opposition with fear or was the focus of pre match plans on how to contain them, similar to how it was for Viv or Ponting, they didn't know what they were doing.

The fact remains that guys like that could take the match away for a team in a session and place them on the backfoot for the remainder of the innings. Your lesser bowlers brought on earlier, less catchers and more defensive fields and lines, all benefit the guys to follow.
 

kyear2

International Coach
I’m pretty sure that Bolo didn’t say that.

I’m pretty sure what I’ve always been saying and what he’s saying is that both methods bring their own value, and neither is inherently greater than the other. Whilst you seem to think one provides far more value and ignore the value of the other. (which is ironic, considering that’s what you accuse others of doing)
That's ridiculous when I clearly stated that I'm not saying one doesn't have a place in the game. But one definitely provides more value and requires a bit more skill.

How can you say that the ability to accelerate or totally dominate a session doesn't have more direct value?

There's a reason Ponting was seen as highly as he was in his prime. Lara was dangerous because when he was on, he didn't only score, he scored quickly. He didn't allow bowlers to settle, he came after them. He set the tone, not them.

I've watched too much cricket where our bolwers were not only getting wickets,but allowing the opposition to score quickly and by the end of the first couple sessions we were already out of the game. There's a difference between having the opposition be 62 - 0 at lunch than headed towards 200 - 0 and the field spread.
 

Coronis

International Coach
That's ridiculous when I clearly stated that I'm not saying one doesn't have a place in the game. But one definitely provides more value and requires a bit more skill.

How can you say that the ability to accelerate or totally dominate a session doesn't have more direct value?

There's a reason Ponting was seen as highly as he was in his prime. Lara was dangerous because when he was on, he didn't only score, he scored quickly. He didn't allow bowlers to settle, he came after them. He set the tone, not them.

I've watched too much cricket where our bolwers were not only getting wickets,but allowing the opposition to score quickly and by the end of the first couple sessions we were already out of the game. There's a difference between having the opposition be 62 - 0 at lunch than headed towards 200 - 0 and the field spread.
I think Bolo said everything I wanted to say, and articulated it better than me.
 

OverratedSanity

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You are better off scoring at least pretty slowly in the vast majority of low scores for example. It may not represent a big swing per innings, but it's still most innings.
A point I've tried to make very often. It can all add up and make things significantly easier for the batsmen lower down the order if you bat time even if your score isn't high.

There are many more test match situations where a 20 (60) will be of more value than a 20(30).
 

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