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Ravichandran Ashwin vs Kapil Dev

Who is the greater test cricketer?


  • Total voters
    32

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Yes saving runs is important, as we discussed with discussing scoring rates, which you may have disagreed with if I recall correctly... But I digress.

But catching is literally taking wickets, and while most "safe" fielders may take about let's say 70% of chances, the greats like Kallis, Hammond, Simpson, Waugh, Sobers, Richardson, Hooper, Taylor, Barlow, Chappell, Ponting, Lloyd etc during their primes not only snared almost everything, they take the half chances that the "safe fielders" don't even attempt to go at.
In the last test in SL, during the 2nd innings I saw two changes go abegging that weren't even attempted. The great ones make a difference, and that's one hill I'm willing to die on.

Go look at some of Sobers catches, he created chances and caught balls at slip, leg slip and short leg (for the spinners obviously) that most are not even getting close to. That's why he was there (once required) and not in the outfield.

I've seen Richardson (and Richards to a slightly lesser extent and regularity) constantly take catches at 3rd that were unbelievable and that most just take an the half volley. That helped to elevate the team and the bowlers the same way that Waugh, Taylor and co did for McGrath, that Coney and Crowe did for Hadlee and the Chappells did for Lillee and I can keep going.


The slips have higher priority and impact. When the field is spread, then Sobers, Richards, Waugh and Ponting can roam the outfield and shine there.
Don't put words in my mouths..... I said I prefer TAKING WICKETS over saving runs, not that I don't want runs to save. If 2 batsmen averages around same at different SR it literally means they are scoring the same amounts of runs......

But yeah, A safe fielder will snatch around 80% of all chances, including half ones. A Simpson or Hammond will do 95%. Significantly more, but not nearly as much as you are making it to be.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Don't put words in my mouths..... I said I prefer TAKING WICKETS over saving runs, not that I don't want runs to save. If 2 batsmen averages around same at different SR it literally means they are scoring the same amounts of runs......

But yeah, A safe fielder will snatch around 80% of all chances, including half ones. A Simpson or Hammond will do 95%. Significantly more, but not nearly as much as you are making it to be.
You totally exclude all context.

A quicker scorer sets up the match, makes things easier and takes pressure off the batsmen to follow. The bowling and fielding plans have been adjusted at best, the bolwers are on to plan B and C and are off their lines, the field has been changed and the rotation has been altered. The bolwing team is also further behind the game and quicker at that. Say Sutcliffe and Hutton stays at the crease for an hour compared to say Richards and Richards, who puts the opponents further behind the game?

Slower scores gets out early as well btw, but an hour of Viv and Barry is preferential for most batting teams, but if most bowling teams had the choice between an hour of either combo, which are they choosing?


I don't know what you deem to be safe, but I've seen Root put down his fair share of crucial chances, but it would be instructional for you to give a couple examples of who you deem to be safe.

We disagree on the numbers quoted, but each drop is a wicket missed, literally. That drop could be Bradman or Hobbs, and the game is changed.

The great teams of Aus, The WI nor SA are not the same without the slip cordons that they had. Not every game were romps vs over matched opponents, the death rows made a significant difference.

I am consistently surprised how differently we see the same sport.
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
You totally exclude all context.

A quicker scorer sets up the match, makes things easier and takes pressure off the batsmen to follow. The bowling and fielding plans have been adjusted at best, the bolwers are on to plan B and C and are off their lines, the field has been changed and the rotation has been altered. The bolwing team is also further behind the game and quicker at that. Say Sutcliffe and Hutton stays at the crease for an hour compared to say Richards and Richards, who puts the opponents further behind the game?

Slower scores gets out early as well btw, but an hour of Viv and Barry is preferential for most batting teams, but if most bowling teams had the choice between an hour of either combo, which are they choosing?


I don't know what you deem to be safe, but I've seen Root put down his fair share of crucial chances, but it would be instructional for you to give a couple examples of who you deem to be safe.

We disagree on the numbers quoted, but each drop is a wicket missed, literally. That drop could be Bradman or Hobbs, and the game is changed.

The great teams of Aus, The WI nor SA are not the same without the slip cordons that they had. Not every game were romps vs over matched opponents, the death rows made a significant difference.

I am consistently surprised how differently we see the same sport.
Not really in the mood for this discussion (not to mention have 2% battery left). Sometimes again later.
 

Xix2565

International Regular
Wisden rated Kapil Dev as the Indian cricketer of the century in 2002 over Tendulkar and Gavaskar.

Ashwin is an amazing cricketer but the context of Kapil Dev who came when India was a cricketing mediocrity and opened the bowling with spin bowling outshines Ashwin who came when India is a cricketing powerhouse
Wisden is not some bastion of knowledge. Again, resorting to subjective opinions of others is not exactly a compelling argument.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Wisden is not some bastion of knowledge. Again, resorting to subjective opinions of others is not exactly a compelling argument.
I said conventional wisdom. As far conventional wisdom goes, Wisden is as conventional as it gets.

It’s hardly a knock on Ashwin to say Kapil was more consequential (great has many definition); Kapil was a unicorn of a player, and probably had more impact on Indian cricket than anyone before or after
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
and probably had more impact on Indian cricket than anyone before or after
we have had zero decent pace bowling all rounders in test cricket since him. this is not really true. sachin and dhoni had way more impact on indian cricket given the number of great keepers and batters in domestic cricket
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
we have had zero decent pace bowling all rounders in test cricket since him. this is not really true. sachin and dhoni had way more impact on indian cricket given the number of great keepers and batters in domestic cricket
There were great keepers (Engineer, Kirmani) and batters (Gavaskar) before Dhoni and Sachin as well though.....
 

Thala_0710

U19 Vice-Captain
Kapil was our first genuine world class fast bowler. He came from a small town in Haryana at a time cricket was considered only for people in the metro cities like Bombay. He then went on to become captain and played a crucial role in our 83 wc win, which completely changed the face of cricket in India.
Having said all that, Sachin would still be my no 1 for the guy with the highest impact with Kapil a close second.
 

Arachnodouche

International Captain
Not the question at hand, but Kapil would be such an asset alongside Bumrah in an ATG team. He could be preserved and allowed to operate at his optimum, a luxury he never had during his career. We can easily find another spinner to replace Ashwin but a high-class pair of seamers would be priceless.
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Kapil was our first genuine world class fast bowler. He came from a small town in Haryana at a time cricket was considered only for people in the metro cities like Bombay. He then went on to become captain and played a crucial role in our 83 wc win, which completely changed the face of cricket in India.
Having said all that, Sachin would still be my no 1 for the guy with the highest impact with Kapil a close second.
Only on impact, seems very fair.
 

ma1978

International Debutant
we have had zero decent pace bowling all rounders in test cricket since him. this is not really true. sachin and dhoni had way more impact on indian cricket given the number of great keepers and batters in domestic cricket
I agree with you on Sachin. I don't agree on Dhoni.

Its not about pace bowling all rounders, its about pace bowling in general. Its also about the swashbuckling batting, the 1983 world cup and the cultural shift Kapil brought about in many ways, including making Indian cricket much more national and much less urban
 

ma1978

International Debutant
Kapil was our first genuine world class fast bowler. He came from a small town in Haryana at a time cricket was considered only for people in the metro cities like Bombay. He then went on to become captain and played a crucial role in our 83 wc win, which completely changed the face of cricket in India.
Having said all that, Sachin would still be my no 1 for the guy with the highest impact with Kapil a close second.
I agree with all of this, including Sachin.

Look, I oculd make a case Ashwin is a *better* cricket than Kapil. But greatness is holistic, and in that sense, Kapil by virtue of his cricumstances trumps anyone not named Sachin.
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
I agree with you on Sachin. I don't agree on Dhoni.

Its not about pace bowling all rounders, its about pace bowling in general. Its also about the swashbuckling batting, the 1983 world cup and the cultural shift Kapil brought about in many ways, including making Indian cricket much more national and much less urban
we had almost no good fast bowlers stepping up for 2 decades after 1983
 

ma1978

International Debutant
we had almost no good fast bowlers stepping up for 2 decades after 1983
they were a lot better than what came before. Srinath followed Kapil and would have made any world xi. Even guys like Venkatesh Prasad, Salil Ankola, Chetan Sharma who were mediocre in a world context where better than any Indian fast bowler that came before. And the domestic scene changed massively
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
they were a lot better than what came before. Srinath followed Kapil and would have made any world xi. Even guys like Venkatesh Prasad, Salil Ankola, Chetan Sharma who were mediocre in a world context where better than any Indian fast bowler that came before. And the domestic scene changed massively
Lol what Chetan and salil were dog **** and not better than madan lal, amarnath, etc
 

capt_Luffy

International Captain
Lol what Chetan and salil were dog **** and not better than madan lal, amarnath, etc
Always thought of Amarnath as a batsman who could bowl...... But then again, he probably was among India's better pre Dev pacers. Imo, Karsan Ghavri and Ramakant Desai were the two best pre Dev Indian pacers post Independence.
 

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