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Ranking the candidates for best fast/pace bowler ever: The Rankings thread

Zinzan

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That's a bit like saying that there weren't many decent openers in the 20s if you ignore Hobbs and Sutcliffe.
Yup, or that there weren't many ATG batsmen in the 2000-2010 decade if you exclude Ponting, Lara, Tendulkar, Kallis, Sangakkara & Dravid
 

morgieb

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One fact (well it's peoples opinions admittedly, but it's recorded opinions) people of our generation miss about Lillee is that pretty much every single one of his contemporaries thought he was the best of that era, and in many cases up to that point. I agree Lillee's record has holes (and PEWS standardised averages suggest he wasn't that good in terms of raw averages) but those people watched him bowl....you didn't, and in the end, that's kind of the point of following sport....
 

trundler

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Lillee alongside Akram is probably the most memorable bowler. Dunno how that should be viewed in terms of skill. Guy deserves cricket for dismissing Richards most times though.
 

Coronis

International Coach
One fact (well it's peoples opinions admittedly, but it's recorded opinions) people of our generation miss about Lillee is that pretty much every single one of his contemporaries thought he was the best of that era, and in many cases up to that point. I agree Lillee's record has holes (and PEWS standardised averages suggest he wasn't that good in terms of raw averages) but those people watched him bowl....you didn't, and in the end, that's kind of the point of following sport....
Sadly, aesthetics don't win matches.
 

Burgey

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This is an excellent point which is not made often enough when reflecting on Lillee's career.

Clearly a very fine bowler in English, New Zealand and Australian conditions, but surely for the title of best bowler of a whole decade (1970s in this instance), that person needs a good record in all conditions, which includes the Subcontinent/West Indies.
It's an interesting point, and finding someone who fits that bill is awkward. Hadlee wasn't yet the God he became, Roberts was average here in 75-76 save for Perth and Holding was a pup on the same tour. Imran took 18 wickets on the 76-77 tour at 28 - not bad numbers but nothing like he produced later when he was at his best as a bowler and not what you'd call amazing. Willis was a solid contributor through the decade, though you would have to mark him down on his stats in 78-79 because that Australian side aside from Hughes, Hogg and of course TOTAB was barely FC let alone test standard.

Lillee broke down in the WI in 73 and I don't believe Australia toured there again until the late 70s when he was with WSC and not available. I believe they then didn't tour again until 84 when he had retired. Likewise, I don't think there was a tour of India in Lillee's time for which he was available, which is a shame, because he could basically get Gavaskar out with a tomato. His record in Pakistan is awful, small sample size nws. I think he played a test in SL and didn't go too well, though tbf to him that was after he'd suffered his knee injury which kept him out of virtually the whole 82-83 Ashes. He'd already started being picked as first change in the ODI side by then, and he wasn't taking the wickets he used to at test level either. I remember his last series, there was talk of dropping him after two tests because he'd only taken one wicket, but either Rackemann or Lawson got injured and he was able to play the whole series.

It's odd he didn't bowl well in Pakistan. He took a lot of wickets on flat tracks like Melbourne, Adelaide and Sydney here.

It's a hole in his record largely not of his own making. One of the good things about modern tour scheduling is at least players get tested everywhere, even though they mostly don't pass the test.
 

Burgey

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I think it's fair to say Dennis Lillee won a lot more matches for Australia than Stephen Fleming did for New Zealand.
 

Bolo

State Captain
One fact (well it's peoples opinions admittedly, but it's recorded opinions) people of our generation miss about Lillee is that pretty much every single one of his contemporaries thought he was the best of that era, and in many cases up to that point. I agree Lillee's record has holes (and PEWS standardised averages suggest he wasn't that good in terms of raw averages) but those people watched him bowl....you didn't, and in the end, that's kind of the point of following sport....
A lot of opinions were routed in the early 70s, which was a pretty weak time for bowlers. Procter and Van Der bijl would likely have been legit competition, but people weren't seeing them. It's an achievement that he was better at a test level than anyone else at the time, but he's not a standout to the extent Steyn and Mcgrath competing against twice as many countries are.
 

OverratedSanity

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He's talking about contemporary opinion by people who watched him bowl. Eye test =/= aesthetics imo. There's more to it than merely that.
 

TheJediBrah

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True, but doesn't invalidate Coro's point.
It was never valid in the first place

Talk about the "gap" in Lillee's record as much as you want, it's technically there, but thinking that his barely playing in certain places, and being injured/past his best when he did is indicative of his overall ability or career as a bowler is poor logic
 

Engle

State Vice-Captain
In any analysis of a cricketer, one looks at the cold hard numbers, plus the bespoken word of his peers and pundits at the time.

Lillee burst onto the fast bowling scene with an impact that reverberated throughout the cricketing world. A greater impact than many other fasties who gradually climb and claw their way into the statistical pages. He encapsulated all elements of fast bowling including the intangibles of determination, aggression and a motivating force to his team.

The term I best ascribe of him is : ' A fast bowlers fast bowler '
 

Zinzan

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It's an interesting point, and finding someone who fits that bill is awkward. Hadlee wasn't yet the God he became, Roberts was average here in 75-76 save for Perth and Holding was a pup on the same tour. Imran took 18 wickets on the 76-77 tour at 28 - not bad numbers but nothing like he produced later when he was at his best as a bowler and not what you'd call amazing. Willis was a solid contributor through the decade, though you would have to mark him down on his stats in 78-79 because that Australian side aside from Hughes, Hogg and of course TOTAB was barely FC let alone test standard.

Lillee broke down in the WI in 73 and I don't believe Australia toured there again until the late 70s when he was with WSC and not available. I believe they then didn't tour again until 84 when he had retired. Likewise, I don't think there was a tour of India in Lillee's time for which he was available, which is a shame, because he could basically get Gavaskar out with a tomato. His record in Pakistan is awful, small sample size nws. I think he played a test in SL and didn't go too well, though tbf to him that was after he'd suffered his knee injury which kept him out of virtually the whole 82-83 Ashes. He'd already started being picked as first change in the ODI side by then, and he wasn't taking the wickets he used to at test level either. I remember his last series, there was talk of dropping him after two tests because he'd only taken one wicket, but either Rackemann or Lawson got injured and he was able to play the whole series.

It's odd he didn't bowl well in Pakistan. He took a lot of wickets on flat tracks like Melbourne, Adelaide and Sydney here.

It's a hole in his record largely not of his own making. One of the good things about modern tour scheduling is at least players get tested everywhere, even though they mostly don't pass the test.
That's actually not a bad point, I didn't really think about how relatively weak the 70s was in terms of ATG bowlers. Certainly compared to the 80s with Marshall, Hadlee, Imran & the 90s with McGrath, Ambrose, Donald & the two Ws.
 

Burgey

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It's probably not so much that there weren't any atg bowlers around so much that a lot of them who were came into their primes either in the late 70s (Roberts) or the early 80s (Holding, Garner, Imran, Hadlee, Botham at his peak). There were some blokes like Thommo and Hogg who had stellar years or two, but didn't do enough over their careers to be considered on the same level as the others, despite being just as or even more difficult to face on their day.
 

KRIS 148

School Boy/Girl Captain
7th. Dennis Lillee (373 points)





Top 5 finishes: 4
Bottom 5 finishes: 2
Highest finish: 1st (1 time)
Lowest finish: 23rd (1 time)



Yet another bowler on this list to at one time hold the record for most test wickets, Lillee's 355 came in only 70 tests, at a rate better than 5 per test. Pretty damn impressive. Lillee was said to be express in his youth and famously skittled a World XI for 8-29(which unfortunately doesn't aid his test stats) back in the early 70s before an injury threatened to end his career. But he bounced back of course. His pace slowed a bit after his comeback but his cunning and guile increased with age. His best ever year came in 1981 where he took a staggering 85 test wickets @ 20.

He was a terrific showman with an iconic look and action and the crowds adored him. The chanting of his name when he ran into bowl is etched firmly into history. Basically the prototype for modern quick bowlers. Easily the biggest icon for Australian cricket between Bradman and Warne and of the best quicks ever.
I have to disagree vehemently here. D K Lillee is in my top 3 if not Numero Uno. Good job on this MM. Only sorry I was not here to add my list.
 

Burgey

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Lillee was fastest to 300 wickets before Ashwin came along iirc. It was a remarkable career considering the injuries he had. Terrific cricketer.
 

Logan

U19 Captain
Lillee was fastest to 300 wickets before Ashwin came along iirc. It was a remarkable career considering the injuries he had. Terrific cricketer.

Ashwin and Lillee were the fastest in terms of matches.

Steyn is the fastest in terms of balls.
 
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KRIS 148

School Boy/Girl Captain
Bugger missing out on this. Just for the record this is my Top10.

Lillee
McGrath
Marshall
Hadlee
Ambrose
Wakar
Barnes
Trueman
Larwood
Akram
 
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