Rank These 21st Century Pacers

[cricketsavant]

i.e. pacers who made their debut on or after 01.01.2001. The list below is in the chronological order of their debuts.

1. Shane Bond (NZ) - White Lightning 2.0
2. James Anderson (ENG) - The Record Breaker
3. Dale Steyn (SA) - Crazy Eyes, Big Heart
4. Mohammad Asif (PAK) - Liquid Wrists
5. Mitchell Johnson (AUS) - Wild Thing
6. Stuart Broad (ENG) - Baby Face
7. Ryan Harris (AUS) - Rampaging Ryno
8. Vernon Philander (SA) - Big Vern
9. Pat Cummins (AUS) - Anytime, Anywhere
10. Neil Wagner (NZ) - The Workhorse
11. Kagiso Rabada (SA) - A New Hope
12. Jaspreet Bumrah (IND) - The Next Big Thing

Please shortlist your 1-10 from these 12.

Apologies to Mitchell Starc, Trent Boult, Morne Morkel, Mohammed Shami, Jofra Archer, and Stuart Clark

Morkel, Starc and Boult can't get in but Bumrah, Harris and Wagner do? You realise that Morkel had an immensely complete career right and that he was the second best bowler for SA at their absolute peak? Boult is currently one of the best bowlers going and one of the best all time for NZ and Starc is possibly the best modern Aussie pace bowler, far better than Johnson in ODIs and just as good in tests. I can't take this thread seriously at the moment.

 

[Daemon]

Starc is possibly the best modern Aussie pace bowler, far better than Johnson in ODIs and just as good in tests. I can't take this thread seriously at the moment.

Starc is the third best quick in his own team. He's a god in ODIs, to say he's just as good in Tests would mean he's basically one of the best Test bowlers ever.

Can't take you seriously at the moment tbh.

 

[harsh.ag]

Morkel, Starc and Boult can't get in but Bumrah, Harris and Wagner do? You realise that Morkel had an immensely complete career right and that he was the second best bowler for SA at their absolute peak? Boult is currently one of the best bowlers going and one of the best all time for NZ and Starc is possibly the best modern Aussie pace bowler, far better than Johnson in ODIs and just as good in tests. I can't take this thread seriously at the moment.

It's fair to want others to be included. Made this thread in the spur of the moment and it reflects a certain list of bowlers I wanted to see discussed.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Starc the test bowler is a myth. He's threatened to dispel that over the last year or so but I'm still unconvinced that he's capable of dominating through a non SL/NZ lineup.

 

[Bolo.]

Morkel, Starc and Boult can't get in but Bumrah, Harris and Wagner do? You realise that Morkel had an immensely complete career right and that he was the second best bowler for SA at their absolute peak? Boult is currently one of the best bowlers going and one of the best all time for NZ and Starc is possibly the best modern Aussie pace bowler, far better than Johnson in ODIs and just as good in tests. I can't take this thread seriously at the moment.

It's not a complete list- plenty of other bowlers deserve consideration.

As a general point though, on this site, the default is generally discussing test only unless otherwise stated. All of the guys you mentioned end up better when considering both formats, but in test only, nobody would rank them near the top of this list.

 

[Flem274*]

also wagner is better than boult. first bowler on the team sheet.

Starc the test bowler is a myth. He's threatened to dispel that over the last year or so but I'm still unconvinced that he's capable of dominating through a non SL/NZ lineup.

oof the psychological hold. feels bad man.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Starc the test bowler is a myth. He's threatened to dispel that over the last year or so but I'm still unconvinced that he's capable of dominating through a non SL/NZ lineup.

yet he's got comparable, even superior, figures to "ATVG" candidates Broad and Anderson despite playing mostly on Aussie roads. Must be something to him.

 

[Line and Length]

yet he's got comparable, even superior, figures to "ATVG" candidates Broad and Anderson despite playing mostly on Aussie roads. Must be something to him.

"Comparable"? - Yes - against South Africa and New Zealand

"Superior"? - Yes - against Sri Lanka and West Indies

But vastly inferior against India and Pakistan.

The pitches are definitely a factor. I feel Starc would have enjoyed bowling on the WACA pitches of the '70s and '80s.

 

[Daemon]

yet he's got comparable, even superior, figures to "ATVG" candidates Broad and Anderson despite playing mostly on Aussie roads. Must be something to him.

been feasting on NZ/SL/WI and carried by his team plenty of times tbf

also bowled many a match losing spell

had some very lucky hauls too. took one of the worst 6-fers i’ve ever seen

not a bad bowler by any means but not as good as the numbers suggest either imo

last year he was excellent though

 

[TheJediBrah]

Just ask GAS, I don't rate Starc at all and was (stupidly) calling for him to be dropped from the Test squad last year, so I'm not trying to pump his tyres by any means.

Just pointing out that regardless of opposition and circumstance, him having similar stats to Broad and Anderson who: 1) play >50% with the Duke in England, 2) if anything play lower quality teams more often and 3) Aussie wickets have been awful roads for virtually Starc's whole career, it's a beyond questionable to say he is a "myth" as Test bowler when those other guys are being talked about as ATVGs

 

[vcs]

Australian pitches are less roady these days
Those two guys have >500 wickets TBF (and no, it isn't because they've played weaker teams more), there were plenty questioning them when they were at the same stage of their career as Starc
It's unlikely Starc would be able to control and swing the Duke well enough to destroy teams in England if he played in those "easier" conditions

FTR I like Starc as a Test bowler and think he's worth keeping around.

 

[harsh.ag]

The Aussie wickets haven't been "roads", virtually every batting line up in the world has struggled on them. And Starc's Aus record is fine. Is more than fine, in fact (SR of 46). He's been mediocre in England and SA, which makes even less sense because one tends to think of him as someone who would enjoy swinging conditions more. And been terrible in India and UAE (which makes sense).

 

[stephen]

It's disingenuous to say that Starc is bad at tests, he's decent but like Johnson before him he's been inconsistent. Honestly he is Australia's best weapon against the tail - Lyon is actually better against the middle order and has been less good at cleaning up the tail.

Starc isn't as good as Hazlewood or Cummins but he's still a very good bowler. He tends to be talked down a bit by Australian supporters because we're used to better. Which isn't really fair because a number of sides would kill to have Starc.

 

[honestbharani]

FWIW, I think Starc might end up better than Hazlewood. Cummins is next level though.

 

[Daemon]

The Aussie wickets haven't been "roads", virtually every batting line up in the world has struggled on them. And Starc's Aus record is fine. Is more than fine, in fact (SR of 46). He's been mediocre in England and SA, which makes even less sense because one tends to think of him as someone who would enjoy swinging conditions more. And been terrible in India and UAE (which makes sense).

Australian wickets are like a lot of Indian/UAE ones, in that they often look like roads when the home side is batting on them then become tough to bat on when the roles reverse. It's just down to home advantage and having grown up in those conditions.

 

[harsh.ag]

 

[stephen]

Australian wickets are like a lot of Indian/UAE ones, in that they often look like roads when the home side is batting on them then become tough to bat on when the roles reverse. It's just down to home advantage and having grown up in those conditions.

This is largely because the West Indies are now garbage. When they were good, West Indian batsmen were quite comfortable in Australian conditions. But West Indian wickets have gotten slower over the last two decades and so their batsmen are no longer as good in Australian conditions.

Now Australia is the only country that really produces pacy wickets outside South Africa. England and West Indian pitches are slow and the subcontinent wickets are dusty and dry, never bouncing high and often deteriorating quickly.

 

[Daemon]

Man some of those catches in this are seriously top quality

 

[Flem274*]

modern aus conditions reward hitting the deck hard and don't give anything to along the wicket and/or swing bowlers, which is why some very good bowlers struggle there.

the downside to such conditions is australia often need to find bowlers capable of adapting in countries where banging it in through the corridor is admirable but fruitless.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Starc's biggest peoblem is that when he misses, he tends to miss in a big way. That probably counts against him more than someone who can be economical yet unthreatening.

But at his best he absolutely is world class with the red ball, a myth he most certainly isn't

Edit @ phlegm

There are guys who can bowl a different/ fuller length than the one that typically suits Australian conditions, but they all seem to be either injured or just a bit pedestrian