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Rank these 10 cricketers

M

Majestic

U19 Captain
Johan said:
and WPM is only a measure of the preassure one shoulders?

Stokes his whole career has been comfortably inferior to English pacers, he exclusively is the fifth bowler or the fourth bowler, he doesn't need to bowl himself into dust when the other English pacers do their job pretty well.

Dev is obviously levels above Stokes as a pacer, but the point is WPM is impacted by things you can't control and is an even less accurate measure of a player's ability than averages, Yeah Stokes doesn't need to bowl much most of the time, but when he gets the ball he's a 29 a piece bowler which is good enough for an AR
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Stokes career average with bowl is 32, not 29. I don't agree that he had a great pace attack for all his career. There was Anderson- Broad who were formidable duo in England but outside England, Stokes hardly had a great bowling attack and when Stokes was fit and bowling, he would still hardly be averaging 32 with bowl.

WPM is not the only metric, averages are also important and so are away performances and alien conditions performance. Let's take a case for Jadeja, he is part of an invincible bowling attack at home but has still managed to pick 295 wickets in 72 tests. If you are an excellent bowler, you will certainly do more than just pick 2 WPM or even lesser.

Stokes with bowl is restricting himself to Kallis the bowler level. Kallis averages 55 with bat but Stokes doesn't even average 40 with bat which I believe he needs to be rated at the level of Cook and KP, both of them are below Root who is the best England player in this millennium though.
 
Johan

Johan

State Vice-Captain
Majestic said:
Stokes career average with bowl is 32, not 29. I don't agree that he had a great pace attack for all his career. There was Anderson- Broad who were formidable duo in England but outside England, Stokes hardly had a great bowling attack and when Stokes was fit and bowling, he would still hardly be averaging 32 with bowl.

WPM is not the only metric, averages are also important and so are away performances and alien conditions performance. Let's take a case for Jadeja, he is part of an invincible bowling attack at home but has still managed to pick 295 wickets in 72 tests. If you are an excellent bowler, you will certainly do more than just pick 2 WPM or even lesser.

Stokes with bowl is restricting himself to Kallis the bowler level. Kallis averages 55 with bat but Stokes doesn't even average 40 with bat which I believe he needs to be rated at the level of Cook and KP, both of them are below Root who is the best England player in this millennium though.
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I made it pretty clear I'm discussing his career trajectory for last 85 tests/8 years of his career.

Again, We didn't have a great pace attack but one that got the job done in most countries, or the ones where we got absolutely thumped and destroyed every tour, Sure he isn't flawless with the ball but even a 29-30 averaging bowler is good enough as a fourth or fifth bowler, which is Stokes's role, and that's my point, low WPM doesn't take away the fact he averages relatively well for a pacer.

Jadeja is a superior bowler to Stokes maybe? and maybe he's the reason he is a part of an invincible attack at home? Jadeja at home is an amazing bowler and a matchwinner, Stokes doesn't need to be better than him to surpass KP, like if Jadeja was entirely a bowler He'd still be a gun player, he's a inferior bat tho, but yeah being inferior to Ravindra Jadeja in bowling isn't really much of a knock against Stokes who is good enough as a pacer in his own right.

he doesn't need to average 40, 40-29 as an all rounder would be an ATG run, 37/29 he has been on for years is already better than KP.
 
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A

Al Salvador

Cricket Spectator
Majestic said:
Lmao, mate I have been watching cricket since you were in diapers. You better watch and learn more.
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Pal no high quality cricket fans put jadeja, ashwin with huge sena issue over all conditions star like Amla. Cricket has never been for you pal, stop being mediocre.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Stokes is the 3rd or 4th best allrounder of his era and one of the top 12-15 of all time, while KP may not have been one of the top 10 test bats of his era, and was ranked 57th* best bat of all time which seems a bit high for me personally.

* CW poll 2024
 
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Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
Majestic said:
My order:-

Steve Smith
Joe Root
Ravichandran Ashwin
Younis Khan
Ravindra Jadeja
Hashim Amla
Kevin Pietersen
Kane Williamson
Ben Stokes
Shakib Al Hasan

A 36 averaging batsman who can't pick 2 WPM on average isn't better than 47 averaging specialist batsman.
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But he’s better than a 38.5 averaging batsman who picks 3.5 WPM on average?
 
M

Majestic

U19 Captain
Johan said:
I made it pretty clear I'm discussing his career trajectory for last 85 tests/8 years of his career.

Again, We didn't have a great pace attack but one that got the job done in most countries, or the ones where we got absolutely thumped and destroyed every tour, Sure he isn't flawless with the ball but even a 29-30 averaging bowler is good enough as a fourth or fifth bowler, which is Stokes's role.

Jadeja is a superior bowler to Stokes maybe? and maybe he's the reason he is a part of an invincible attack at home? Jadeja at home is an amazing bowler and a matchwinner, Stokes doesn't need to be better than him to surpass KP, like if Jadeja was entirely a bowler He'd still be a gun player, he's a inferior bat tho, but yeah being inferior to Ravindra Jadeja in bowling isn't really much of a knock against Stokes who is good enough as a pacer in his own right.

he doesn't need to average 40, 40-29 as an all rounder would be an ATG run, 37/29 he has been on for years is already better than KP.
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Why are you picking his last 8 years of his career? If I pick KP's career also like that where I only consider the peak phase then between 2005-2011,in his first 80 tests his average was 50.5 with bat. Why not compare with 80 tests of KP then?

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I don't think Stokes is better than KP even there because KP has played great knocks vs the likes of McGrath, Warne, Steyn and has fared better than Stokes in India and Australia, the two major nations against whom your runs value a lot. Stokes record is mediocre in Asia and Australia. If he does really well in Australia next time, I can rate him above KP then.
 
F

Fuller Pilch

Hall of Fame Member
Stokes is also a reasonably good captain, while KP was terrible.

Mind you, these two are clearly 9th and 10th on the list so why worry about it too much?
 
M

Majestic

U19 Captain
Coronis said:
But he’s better than a 38.5 averaging batsman who picks 3.5 WPM on average?
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No,he isn't unless that player plays for Bangladesh which is basically not a same level comparison because of the conditions and strength of opposition they are playing.
 
Johan

Johan

State Vice-Captain
Majestic said:
Why are you picking his last 8 years of his career? If I pick KP's career also like that where I only consider the peak phase then between 2005-2011,in his first 80 tests his average was 50.5 with bat. Why not compare with 80 tests of KP then?

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www.howstat.com

I don't think Stokes is better than KP even there because KP has played great knocks vs the likes of McGrath, Warne, Steyn and has fared better than Stokes in India and Australia, the two major nations against whom your runs value a lot. Stokes record is mediocre in Asia and Australia. If he does really well in Australia next time, I can rate him above KP then.
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I start with 2016 because that's when both of them turn 25, KP didn't have to play for 3 years in his early 20s and got to debut at prime, 85 tests and 8 years isn't peak, if it was you won't need a 6 year run but that's whatever.

Funny, these are Stokes's numbers in last 8 years among pacers who played 40 or more tests

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as clearly visible, he is a fine bowler in that demographic, his SR isn't bad either, just because he isn't asked to bowl too much doesn't mean he is bad.

he is fine in Asia, He did well in SL and BD, in Ind everyone fails these days and he only went to UAE once when he was 24, Australia he did fine in his debut series ten years ago, also Stokes can only perform against the bowlers he gets, but if you want to point out Pietersen playing singular great innings against great bowlers, I'll point out how his whole career was in the easiest batting area in 50 or more years.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
Majestic said:
Ryan Ten deoschate must also be a better ODI batter than Kohli with batting average of 67.
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RTD had a disproportionate amount of weak teams in his opposition and played barely 60 odd games. Shakib didn't. 2019 WC well establishes the batting hierarchy between the two AND Shakib is a Good frontline bowler.
 
M

Majestic

U19 Captain
Johan said:
I start with 2016 because that's when both of them turn 25, KP didn't have to play for 3 years in his early 20s and got to debut at prime, 85 tests and 8 years isn't peak, if it was you won't need a 6 year run but that's whatever.

Funny, these are Stokes's numbers in last 8 years among pacers who played 40 or more tests

View attachment 41653
as clearly visible, he is a fine bowler in that demographic, his SR isn't bad either, just because he isn't asked to bowl too much doesn't mean he is bad.

he is fine in Asia, He did well in SL and BD, in Ind everyone fails these days and he only went to UAE once when he was 24, Australia he did fine in his debut series ten years ago, also Stokes can only perform against the bowlers he gets, but if you want to point out Pietersen playing singular great innings against great bowlers, I'll point out how his whole career was in the easiest batting area in 50 or more years.
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Every player has different peaks or decline, you can't have it as per your suitability. KP's 80 test peak was superb because he was consistent and had the knack of producing special knocks every now and then.

Again, Stokes bowling avg don't justify because all he has managed is picking 157 wickets in 85 tests in his prime lol. That average don't mean as much when he can't even pick more than 2 WPM. He is just a Jacques Kallis level bowler no matter how many times you bring that average in discussion.

With that average, he should average 40 or perform in Australia and Asia then only he can be rated better than Pietersen. If he can't for whatever be the reason, he can't be rated better than KP.
 
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