Rahul Dravid vs Javed Miandad

[subshakerz]

I've got Miandad averaging sub 40 in three countries, Dravid in two. One of those countries is SA which Miandad didn't play in, but which is considered bowler-friendly (I'm not holding that against Miandad btw). Dravid's stand out numbers in England are crazy-good, and it's a tough place to bat in the top three. He even opened there in one series and dominated iirc. The England attacks Dravid faced from the mid-2000s onwards were also very very good at home. On balance better then those Miandad faced imo.

Both had periods where they faced ATG Aus attacks here, albeit Dravid more often, and he's still marginally ahead over a decent sample size. Certainly his away record to Aus is better than Miandad's to the Windies - the dominant attack of his time.

And as I said, the sheer ****ing state of Pakistan umpiring in the 80s in particular. I mean, they've written operatic tragedies over it, it was that bad.

Dravid was a complete flop against McWarne in Australia. His only great series was against a second string attack on flat pitches. Miandad wasnt great in WI but he did have a great series against them in 88.

Dravid's record in SA is comparable to Miandad's in Australia.

Dravid dominated in England while Miandad did it in NZ with Hadlee.

Miandad flopped in Sri Lanka but at that point they weren't really a credible opposition, and Dravid struggled in Sri Lanka too.

I think on balance, Dravid has a better away record, but that also has much to do with the era he played in and the minnows.

 

[Flem274*]

Miandad was far more impressive for his era buuuuut stories of home umpiring and seeing Dravid bat top 3 and open with success in Indian kryponite conditions sways me a lot.

Miandad was better but I enjoy Dravid more.

 

[Burgey]

Dravid was a complete flop against McWarne in Australia. His only great series was against a second string attack on flat pitches

Reasonable point this

 

[subshakerz]

I readily agree with Miandad having home umpiring bias advantage but I think it balances out with Dravid playing minnows and on flatter pitches generally. I think Dravid has an edge but they are closer than people think.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Dravid was a complete flop against McWarne in Australia. His only great series was against a second string attack on flat pitches. Miandad wasnt great in WI but he did have a great series against them in 88.

Dravid's record in SA is comparable to Miandad's in Australia.

Dravid dominated in England while Miandad did it in NZ with Hadlee.

Miandad flopped in Sri Lanka but at that point they weren't really a credible opposition, and Dravid struggled in Sri Lanka too.

I think on balance, Dravid has a better away record, but that also has much to do with the era he played in and the minnows.

Overall fair-ish points. But I do think the Australia attack still having two quality bowlers in Gillespie and MacGill goes ignored sometimes. It wasn't Brad Williams from both ends the entire test. His Adelaide performance is one of the ATG Indian overseas performances.

Dravid's record in SA I'd say probably comparable to Miandad in WI in a way. Overall, they had poor records but had one very good tour against a great attack. Miandad in 88 and Dravid in 97.

I think both had their struggles (relatively) against the best attacks of their times but made up in other ways. Dravid by being a champ in ultra low scoring games and Miandad by annoying the **** out of the opposition.

 

[Shady Slim]

If @subshakerz or anyone else can provide a reasonable explanation for it, I'll be glad to listen because it looks dodgy af.

are you saying he has questions to answer here?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Not only then, even with DRS, LBW rates of viviting teams against Pakistan will be very very high. Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib, Asif all bowled at the stumps.

Maybe because they knew they would get all the lbws

 

[Kirkut]

Tests: Dravid

LOIs: Miandad

 

[sledger]

it's just so obviously Dravid

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Close, but Miandad.
He had the fear factor.

 

[trundler]

Genuinely don't see how this is remotely close tbh. Miandad one of the great test match myths cf Dravid.

60/45 is an identical home away split to Ponting. Did it in a far tougher era though. Miandad only struggled against the greatest bowling attack of all time away and owned Hadlee in NZ over and over again. You're being ridiculous.

 

[Kirkut]

To be frank though the 80s does get overrated here.
I've watched the 1980 australia vs west indies Adelaide footage, standard Adeliade pitch.

 

[Xuhaib]

Dravid but it's not by a lot. JM benefited from home umpiring but think when travelling he also copped a few rough ones as home teams looked to get even for the favourable support he got when they played him in Pakistan.

It probably does not even out but it did impact his final numbers by some bit. It took a while for even Imran to completely respect him but the way he stood up to WI in 88 and then followed up by totally owning Hadlee in the next series finally forced Imran to acknowledge hes one the greats of the game at that time.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Can we find someway for Pakistan being bad at catching in slips to affect Miandad's average?

 

[shortpitched713]

I think among Pak batsmen, Younis not Miandad has a much stronger case to be considered as good/better than Dravid.



Miandad's LBW stats are genuinely eye opening and I've never been able to get past them. Given LBW 8 times in 60 tests at home and 25 times in 64 tests away. The guy went a full 9 years at home without being given out lbw at one point. It's a massive skew, particularly when you consider his style of play which involved shuffling across the stumps. Also taking into account bowlers would generally target the stumps even more in Asian conditions it looks even weirder. If @subshakerz or anyone else can provide a reasonable explanation for it, I'll be glad to listen because it looks dodgy af.

There's no need for an explanation, as the stat, and the implicit charge underlying it is devoid of context or specific evidence of wrongdoing. It's pretty well known that there are numerous examples of suspicious results and instances where away teams were hardly done by and seemed to play 11 v 13.

Why would Miandad alone, or sometimes Pakistani players at home, or sometimes subcontinent players in general at home be more highly penalized or scrutinized than others absent of specific evidence of wrongdoing? Surely if the system of umpiring could lead to horribly biased results, then we'd have to negatively scrutinize all player records prior to 1995 and the institution of neutral umpiring.

Pointing to a single player's home record, as if he was the don of all of Pakistan during that time to get that much influence over umpires, seems oddly conspiratorial.

 

[OverratedSanity]

It's too tedious to look up individual players LBW stats from that era to compared, but I think Miandad's numbers stand out pretty badly. I have no evidence, but I'm just saying it's very interesting ? ? ? ?

He has questions to answer etc.

 

[anil1405]

WI was a joke in latter parts of his career. Remove WI from his record, and it becomes 48.

Apparently his finest dual test knocks came against the likes of Taylor and Collymore on a pitch which made them look nothing short of Ambrose and Walsh at their peak.

 

[Kirkut]

Apparently his finest dual test knocks came against the likes of Taylor and Collymore on a pitch which made them look nothing short of Ambrose and Walsh at their peak.

Sure, Windies were not 80s level awesome by then but almost the same attack got England 51 all out 3 years later.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Sure, Windies were not 80s level awesome by then but almost the same attack got England 51 all out 3 years later.

An asterisk on that…we always demolish England with crap bowlers.

 

[Migara]

Maybe because they knew they would get all the lbws

they did it out side Pakistan too, significantly better than others