Rahul Dravid vs Javed Miandad

[Burgey]

Genuinely looking at these numbers and coming to a completely different conclusion re their respective away records.

 

[ankitj]

@Days of Grace ranking had Dravid at #18 and Miandad at #35 (behind all of Yousuf, Younis and Haq). Very interesting. Would have thought Miandad would be much closer to Dravid.

DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

Interesting top 10 ahead. Was just sitting thinking about the names of the guys to come, and realised that no batsman is perfect. When one goes through the top 10 batters, they all have something in in their records or career that can be pointed at as a demerit. Just using the Windies guys...

www.cricketweb.net

 

[Migara]

@Days of Grace ranking had Dravid at #18 and Miandad at #35 (behind all of Yousuf, Younis and Haq). Very interesting. Would have thought Miandad would be much closer to Dravid.

DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

Interesting top 10 ahead. Was just sitting thinking about the names of the guys to come, and realised that no batsman is perfect. When one goes through the top 10 batters, they all have something in in their records or career that can be pointed at as a demerit. Just using the Windies guys...

www.cricketweb.net

avweage icc ranking have him higher than Dravid FTR

 

[TheJediBrah]

@Days of Grace ranking had Dravid at #18 and Miandad at #35 (behind all of Yousuf, Younis and Haq). Very interesting. Would have thought Miandad would be much closer to Dravid.

DoG's Top 100 Test Batsmen Countdown Thread

Interesting top 10 ahead. Was just sitting thinking about the names of the guys to come, and realised that no batsman is perfect. When one goes through the top 10 batters, they all have something in in their records or career that can be pointed at as a demerit. Just using the Windies guys...

www.cricketweb.net

Hmm, maybe DoG's ratings take into account Pakistan umpiring

 

[Burgey]

Why, exactly? What is his big advantage?

I've got Miandad averaging sub 40 in three countries, Dravid in two. One of those countries is SA which Miandad didn't play in, but which is considered bowler-friendly (I'm not holding that against Miandad btw). Dravid's stand out numbers in England are crazy-good, and it's a tough place to bat in the top three. He even opened there in one series and dominated iirc. The England attacks Dravid faced from the mid-2000s onwards were also very very good at home. On balance better then those Miandad faced imo.

Both had periods where they faced ATG Aus attacks here, albeit Dravid more often, and he's still marginally ahead over a decent sample size. Certainly his away record to Aus is better than Miandad's to the Windies - the dominant attack of his time.

And as I said, the sheer ****ing state of Pakistan umpiring in the 80s in particular. I mean, they've written operatic tragedies over it, it was that bad.

 

[Migara]

I've got Miandad averaging sub 40 in three countries, Dravid in two. One of those countries is SA which Miandad didn't play in, but which is considered bowler-friendly (I'm not holding that against Miandad btw). Dravid's stand out numbers in England are crazy-good, and it's a tough place to bat in the top three. He even opened there in one series and dominated iirc. The England attacks Dravid faced from the mid-2000s onwards were also very very good at home. On balance better then those Miandad faced imo.

Both had periods where they faced ATG Aus attacks here, albeit Dravid more often, and he's still marginally ahead over a decent sample size. Certainly his away record to Aus is better than Miandad's to the Windies - the dominant attack of his time.

And as I said, the sheer ****ing state of Pakistan umpiring in the 80s in particular. I mean, they've written operatic tragedies over it, it was that bad.

You just missed one important player. Hadlee.

These two have almost identical away records (which takes alleged biased umpiring out of the picture) against top four sides. For Miandad WI, AUS, NZ and ENG, and for Dravid AUS, SAF, NZ and ENG.

 

[Burgey]

They don't have "almost identical" away records though.

 

[Migara]

They don't have "almost identical" away records though.

Rahul had two minnows to bash in addition to WI, who were going down the barrel to minnow hood during his time. Javed had only one to bash.

 

[Burgey]

TBf SL were minnows in Miandad's time too, and he averaged 15 there. He played one series vs Zimbabwe (who I assume you're referring to) but that was at home and late in his career where you could reasonably say he was on the way out.

What's more, I wasn't really referring to Dravid's record vs Minnows as a reason I rated him higher.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Rahul had two minnows to bash in addition to WI, who were going down the barrel to minnow hood during his time. Javed had only one to bash.

Away from the subcontinent in Aus/SA/NZ/SA/WI, Dravid averaged 52 and Miandad 46. Dravid clearly has the edge in the away record but it's reasonably close overall.

 

[Migara]

Away from the subcontinent in Aus/SA/NZ/SA/WI, Dravid averaged 52 and Miandad 46. Dravid clearly has the edge in the away record but it's reasonably close overall.

WI was a joke in latter parts of his career. Remove WI from his record, and it becomes 48.

 

[shortpitched713]

You can't directly compare their averages, because Dravid played in a much more batsman friendly era. I'm following my policy of voting for whichever one has less votes to even this out, and going with Miandad

The somewhat predictable Indian and Australian popularity contest that exists on Cricket Chat seems to continue unabated, so I don't expect to be able to stem that tide with any mode of argumentation.

On a somewhat on topic, but slightly tangential note, I wonder how people rate Martin Crowe. Some non insane, experienced cricket folks, I believe Wasim Akram in particular, rated him as one of the absolute bests of his era. But his relatively lower average, playing on even home pitches that weren't batsman friendly, plus the fact that he's a Kiwi means I never read much about him on here, and it's as predictable as it is sad.

 

[OverratedSanity]

WI was a joke in latter parts of his career. Remove WI from his record, and it becomes 48.

This seems pretty arbitrary. If you remove the crap Windies attacks and only keep the tour where he faced Ambrose/Walsh/Bishop, he averages 72 there.

 

[CricAddict]

Dravid easily if it is only tests. But Miandad was a better ODI batsman than Dravid.

 

[Burgey]

On a somewhat on topic, but slightly tangential note, I wonder how people rate Martin Crowe. Some non insane, experienced cricket folks, I believe Wasim Akram in particular, rated him as one of the absolute bests of his era. But his relatively lower average, playing on even home pitches that weren't batsman friendly, plus the fact that he's a Kiwi means I never read much about him on here, and it's as predictable as it is sad.

You probably need to read a bit more then, because Crowe is rated very highly by many people on here. And rightly so.

 

[Raz0r6ack]

Moreover, During the 2008 Sydney Test between Australia and India, Dravid took 40 deliveries to score his first run. This was the same match in which the infamous Monkeygate incident occurred.

I remember being at that game. After about 25-30 dot balls the ground was literally shaking up and down when the bowler was running in when Dravid was on strike.

Crowd was so loud you couldn't even hear yourself think.

Enormous roar when he finally a single to get off strike.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I think among Pak batsmen, Younis not Miandad has a much stronger case to be considered as good/better than Dravid.

And as I said, the sheer ****ing state of Pakistan umpiring in the 80s in particular. I mean, they've written operatic tragedies over it, it was that bad.

Miandad's LBW stats are genuinely eye opening and I've never been able to get past them. Given LBW 8 times in 60 tests at home and 25 times in 64 tests away. The guy went a full 9 years at home without being given out lbw at one point. It's a massive skew, particularly when you consider his style of play which involved shuffling across the stumps. Also taking into account bowlers would generally target the stumps even more in Asian conditions it looks even weirder. If @subshakerz or anyone else can provide a reasonable explanation for it, I'll be glad to listen because it looks dodgy af.

 

[ankitj]

I think among Pak batsmen, Younis not Miandad has a much stronger case to be considered as good/better than Dravid.



Miandad's LBW stats are genuinely eye opening and I've never been able to get past them. Given LBW 8 times in 60 tests at home and 25 times in 64 tests away. The guy went a full 9 years at home without being given out lbw at one point. It's a massive skew, particularly when you consider his style of play which involved shuffling across the stumps. Also taking into account bowlers would generally target the stumps even more in Asian conditions it looks even weirder. If @subshakerz or anyone else can provide a reasonable explanation for it, I'll be glad to listen because it looks dodgy af.

Will be interesting to see # and % of LBW outs in Pakistan for home and visiting teams in that period.

 

[Migara]

Will be interesting to see # and % of LBW outs in Pakistan for home and visiting teams in that period.

Not only then, even with DRS, LBW rates of viviting teams against Pakistan will be very very high. Wasim, Waqar, Imran, Shoaib, Asif all bowled at the stumps.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It is a travesty that JayJay isn't here for this thread