Rahul Dravid - Best ever Batsman from Subcontinent

[Beleg]

eh, I know Ganguly bashing is the norm around here but I consider him to be one of the better batsmen India have produced since the 90's.


I also forgot Anwar. He gets the number four slot.


Fraz, I live in Multan, not Lahore.

 

[SJS]

No i have never seen him bat so you can say that i am making a harsh judgement. His record against Aus and WI is not very flashy and thats the main reason i dont rate him very highly in tests. For ODI's i rate him equal to Javaid and Anwar.

ESPN Star have recently been showing old Pakistan test matches in a daily programme. I get to see quite a few of them. Its an absolute revelation!

One had forgotten how good these guys were. Forget Zaheer, who looks like 'God" its amazing how good Mushtaq Mohammad was for example, as a batsman. One had forgotten. Look at him today and you realise how good he was.

Even more amazing was the batting of Intekhab and his immacuate clean hitting. These guys were good.

Get hold of one of these videos and have a look. I assure you you will feel immensly proud.

 

[Xuhaib]

ESPN Star have recently been showing old Pakistan test matches in a daily programme. I get to see quite a few of them. Its an absolute revelation!

One had forgotten how good these guys were. Forget Zaheer, who looks like 'God" its amazing how good Mushtaq Mohammad was for example, as a batsman. One had forgotten. Look at him today and you realise how good he was.

Even more amazing was the batting of Intekhab and his immacuate clean hitting. These guys were good.

Get hold of one of these videos and have a look. I assure you you will feel immensly proud.

Yes i know. My dad is constantly talking about these guys whenever we are watching a match on telly and especially when guys like Farhat, Butt or Hameed are batting.

 

[FRAZ]

I dont know much about the pre-historic teams , but the most talented team that Pakistan ever produced was the one in the late 70's and the early 80's. Every single player was class of his own . Ill organized they were ,and as a unit they were not the best at all. Players like Imran , Sarfraz , Majid , Zaheer , Intekhab , Mushtaq , Bari etc .They were all there . The best team (talent wise) was that one . And after that team if there was any team which could dominate any other team was the one which Wasim had during and around 99 WC times.

 

[SJS]

Yes i know. My dad is constantly talking about these guys whenever we are watching a match on telly on and especially when guys like Farhat, Butt or Hameed are batting.

Your dad is right.

Pakistani current team openers suck (I dont like that word but it is well understood). These guys wouldnt get within miles of a Pakistani dressing room in the seventies or eighties believe me. Saeed Anwar was the last top class opener Pakistan had.

In those day no one called Mudassar Nazar a 'great' batsman. I am sure he would score so many runs today it wouldnt be funny and he would be treated like God.

And if he got to play Bangladesh or Zimbabwe Lara's 400 would be in trouble

 

[Xuhaib]

Your dad is right.

Pakistani current team openers suck (I dont like that word but it is well understood). These guys wouldnt get within miles of a Pakistani dressing room in the seventies or eighties believe me. Saeed Anwar was the last top class opener Pakistan had.

In those day no one called Mudassar Nazar a 'great' batsman. I am sure he would score so many runs today it wouldnt be funny and he would be treated like God.

And if he got to play Bangladesh or Zimbabwe Lara's 400 would be in trouble

Would 5 days be enough for him?

 

[SJS]

I dont know much about the pre-historic teams , but the most talented team that Pakistan ever produced was the one in the late 70's and the early 80's. Every single player was class of his own . Ill organized they were ,and as a unit they were not the best at all. Players like Imran , Sarfraz , Majid , Zaheer , Intekhab , Mushtaq , Bari etc .They were all there . The best team (talent wise) was that one . And after that team if there was any team which could dominate any other team was the one which Wasim had during and around 99 WC times.

Pakistan did not exist in pre-historic times as a team . Kidding.

You are right. Take Hanif and Fazal Mehmood from the fifties and sixties and then take the stars of the 70's and 80's and you get the all time great Pakistani side.

Only Inzemam would get a whiff in that team from the nineties and thereafter.

 

[Langeveldt]

Probably, yes.. I'd rate him as the best batsman in the world at the moment

 

[SJS]

Would 5 days be enough for him?

In cricket there are many myths as well as some labels which are very sticky tough not always justified. Let me give you a bit of 'factual data'

Mudassar's notoriety for a batsman in the 'Tavare-mould' was because of his first three innings in tests. These were scored at an average run rate of 31.7 per 100 balls. The slowest being his very first - 114 in 449 balls.

People have never forgiven him for that although he scored another 7 test hundreds at a very decent strike rate indeed.

Records are not available for the number of balls he faced when scoring 199 against India in October 1984. But for his other six hundreds the strike rates are :-

- 120 at 46.7
- 152 at 49.4
- 152 at 51.4
- 231 at 52.0
- 106 at 56.7
- 119 at 59.8

Thats a total of six centuries (1941 runs) at 52.1 per 100 balls. Thas 400 runs in 128 overs. If he went after them as he went after India in scoring a century in Dec 1982, he would need just 111 overs and 3 deliveries

Yes Lara did it in 97 overs (582 balls) but then everyone isnt BCL

 

[Mecnun]

Gavaskar and Miandad.

 

[Top_Cat]

Actually, Zaheer Abbas is a good one. I've only ever seen footage of him but he looked awfully good. Wrists of steel from what I saw.

And I agree with Beleg a little; Ganguly is an under-rated player. At his best, he was one of the best off-side players in the world. It's just that his leg-side play was a SEVERE problem!

 

[Anil]

On the subject of Zaheer.

He was easily the best batsman EXCEPT, according to some accounts, against express fast bowling. On the easy paced wickets of India and Pakistan and even in England, he was a murderer of medium to medium fast bowling and one of the finest batsmen against spin bowling. His footwork against the Indian spinners in all the series and against Underwood during his massive 274 (I have seen it again and again on TV) was amazing. He would just walk out to the pitch of the ball and drive on either side of the wicket.

Lloyd, in selecting a world XI from his contemporaries chose only three non-West Indian batsmen. Two of them were openers (Gavaskar and Boycott) and for the third place he short listed two Australians(Chappell brothers) and two Pakistanis (Zaheer and Majid). He finally chose the elder Chappell but it shows the regard he had for Zaheer and I doubt if that would have been the case if Zaheer was useless against fast bowlers.

Miandad writes :
Zaheer is probably the most purely talented batsman so far produced by Pakistan. When he was in rythm he was second to none.
The other three batsmen he rates at the top amongst his contempraries from his own country are Majid, Mushtaq and Asif.

Of Malik he writes :
Saleem Malik was another highly talented Pakistani batsman and one of the sewwtest timers of a cricket ball, but throughout his career he remained shaky against genuine pace.

Imran writes :
Zaheer not only scored masses of runs, but the manner of execution was superb. He looked the complete stroke maker on the slow wickets of Pakistan and he destroyed the Indian spinners.....

His timing and placement of shots was absolutely breathtaking and he rarely bothered to loft the ball. He looked so utterly safe and his improvised shots - whipping a ball on the off stump through the legside - carried an air of inevitability about them.

Our careers have run more or less parallel and I consider Zaheer the best attacking batsman in the world on slow wickets against spin and medium pace. Unlike Richards he doesnt get bored with piling on the runs and he keeps the ball on the ground. He plays very close to the body at the moment of impact and his reach off the backfoot is enormous.

He played one of the best shots I've ever seen....during a test against India - he went to drive a ball from Kapilthat wasnt quite upto him, so he checked his shot and played a foeward defensive shot. The ball rocketed through the cover boundary even though he played it defensively, his timing was so much in tune !

He further adds :
His range of strokes, timing and concentration were wonderful. Yet.....his apparent inability to battle it out in pressure situations meant he cant be ranked above Viv Richards and Ian Chappell.

as you say, he was a very good player of medium pace and spin but not very flash against genuine pace, his record clearly shows that....furthermore, his record in pakistan(56) and outside(38) with a good average only in england(50+), just ok in australia(40 something) and below average mostly everywhere else is also against him.....he was a very stylish and wristy player but a gavaskar he was not and not by a long shot...mohammad 'cheat' azharuddin was of the same brand, wristy, stylish, murderer of medium pace and spin in sub continental conditions and england and especially where the ball doesn't bounce above knee height, he was also exceptionally talented, would you call him as good or a better batsman than gavaskar?

 

[SJS]

as you say, he was a very good player of medium pace and spin but not very flash against genuine pace, his record clearly shows that....furthermore, his record in pakistan(56) and outside(38) with a good average only in england(50+), just ok in australia(40 something) and below average mostly everywhere else is also against him.....he was a very stylish and wristy player but a gavaskar he was not and not by a long shot...mohammad 'cheat' azharuddin was of the same brand, wristy, stylish, murderer of medium pace and spin in sub continental conditions and england and especially where the ball doesn't bounce above knee height, he was also exceptionally talented, would you call him as good or a better batsman than gavaskar?

No. I dont thin he was a better batsman than Gavaskar and i never said that he was. I just said that some even went to the extent of saying he was to show how highly he was rated.

I even said "One may or may not agree with THAT but ..." No I dont think he was a better batsman than Gavaskar. BTW, nor do Miandad and Imran

I was actually reacting to people listing Mohammad Yousuf, Saleem Malik and Ganguly but not Zaheer. He may not have been the greatest player of fast bowling but he could play them far far better than ganguly or Malik could ever dream of.

Mohd. Yousuf just doesnt belong in the same space.

Come on the guy scored everywhere, not least scored a hundred first class centuries.

Ponting is not a great player of high quality spin on helpful tracks but we dont use that to completely decry his batsmanship.

 

[Anil]

No. I dont thin he was a better batsman than Gavaskar and i never said that he was. I just said that some even went to the extent of saying he was to show how highly he was rated.

I even said "One may or may not agree with THAT but ..." No I dont think he was a better batsman than Gavaskar. BTW, nor do Miandad and Imran

I was actually reacting to people listing Mohammad Yousuf, Saleem Malik and Ganguly but not Zaheer. He may not have been the greatest player of fast bowling but he could play them far far better than ganguly or Malik could ever dream of.

Mohd. Yousuf just doesnt belong in the same space.

Come on the guy scored everywhere, not least scored a hundred first class centuries.

Ponting is not a great player of high quality spin on helpful tracks but we dont use that to completely decry his batsmanship.

ok now we are mostly on the same page....

i agree with most of what you said....but malik was exceptionally talented and had he not gone the match-fixing way, he might easily have fit into the top 5 pakistani batsmen of all-time i feel...just my opinion of course...both he and abbas had their weaknesses against pace but malik was not as helpless against it as say, azhar....anyway the point is moot, the guy proved himself to be a ******* so no point comparing the two i guess...agreed about yousuf and ganguly....

 

[Fusion]

Pakistan did not exist in pre-historic times as a team . Kidding.

You are right. Take Hanif and Fazal Mehmood from the fifties and sixties and then take the stars of the 70's and 80's and you get the all time great Pakistani side.

Only Inzemam would get a whiff in that team from the nineties and thereafter.

SJS,
What would your all time Pak XI be? You may have already posted this, but I would be delighted if you would post it once more here. And I know this may be asking a lot, but can you also explain your choices? You are probably one of the more knowledgeable students of the game and I would love to read your opinions on the all time Pak team.

 

[silentstriker]

The reason Dravid isn't the best is not because he doesn't score enough runs...its that he does it in such a manner that there is no 'aura' about him.

Viv and Tendulkar had that aura, that took them to the next level. Fielders automatically backing off 10 yards as soon as they came in....not many people can do that. And thats why Dravid is around 3rd-4th in the best all time subcontinent.

Thats not a knock on Dravid - God knows how much India need him...but its the style and speed of his runs that precludes him from being the best.

 

[Goughy]

The reason Dravid isn't the best is not because he doesn't score enough runs...its that he does it in such a manner that there is no 'aura' about him.

Viv and Tendulkar had that aura, that took them to the next level. Fielders automatically backing off 10 yards as soon as they came in....not many people can do that. And thats why Dravid is around 3rd-4th in the best all time subcontinent.

Thats not a knock on Dravid - God knows how much India need him...but its the style and speed of his runs that precludes him from being the best.

Ah, but Dravid has a different aura. He makes bowlers think "How the hell do I get this guy out?".

Viv and Sachin may scare them but in the back of their head they have a small voice that tells them "these guys might give me a chance".

As a semi-decent bowler in my prime I would rather bowl at Sachin or Viv than Dravid as he scares me in the worse way, I would have no idea how to get him out!

The best way to dominate a bowler is not to hit him around the park but crush his spirit by giving him no hope.

 

[Jono]

Was going to post the same thing Goughy.

Dravid still has an aura, but a different one. Bowlers are thinking "He's very unlikely to give me his wicket, so I'm going to have to get him out myself. Oh... how the hell am I going to do that? This may take all day."

 

[Goughy]

Was going to post the same thing Goughy.

Dravid still has an aura, but a different one. Bowlers are thinking "He's very unlikely to give me his wicket, so I'm going to have to get him out myself. Oh... how the hell am I going to do that? This may take all day."

As I posted above Id rather bowl at Sachin than Dravid and the same goes for KP and Kallis. They crush bowlers spirits yet we still get the 'Dravid and Kallis' are boring posts whenever they play. Im sure it drive you as crazy as it does me.

Dravid is a machine and it will be interesting to hear our childrens and our childrens children view of his legacy in the future.

 

[silentstriker]

Ah, but Dravid has a different aura. He makes bowlers think "How the hell do I get this guy out?".

Viv and Sachin may scare them but in the back of their head they have a small voice that tells them "these guys might give me a chance".

As a semi-decent bowler in my prime I would rather bowl at Sachin or Viv than Dravid as he scares me in the worse way, I would have no idea how to get him out!

The best way to dominate a bowler is not to hit him around the park but crush his spirit by giving him no hope.

But Viv and Sachin would never let you settle. Yes they give you chances, but you're just hoping its not a day where they will literally end your career. With Dravid, you can FOCUS on how to get him out. With people like Viv, your focus is on how you save your career.

You were a bowler, I wasn't...so I'll defer to you on the emotions that bowlers feel...but if it were me I'd much rather have bowled 20 overs for 70 runs and no wickets, than 5 overs 60 runs and taken out of the attack :P.