Possible Ashes stating line-ups & England possible touring squad

[UncleTheOne]

Talking of Stuart Clark, I saw him play a few games for Middlesex when he was over here and he looked very average to say the least. So how come he performed so well in South Africa? Favourable conditions? Or has he improved a hell of a lot during the short space of time?

From what I saw I imagine KP and co would be well up for facing him. Just looking for a little more insight into the bloke.

 

[aussie]

Am inclined to agree with you there, would prefer to see Clark over Gillespie at the moment..

Well from what i saw of Dizzy today i'm not so sure, his figures look a bit rough but he beat the bat a lot early on & could have easily got about 3 wickets. But yea i would still have Clark ahead of him slightly now, but if he can end the season with some wickets & start the Pura cup with South Australia well it could be a different story.

 

[edofmund]

Hear hear! A test featuring both Warne & Panesar will be a real treat.

 

[stumpski]

Talking of Stuart Clark, I saw him play a few games for Middlesex when he was over here and he looked very average to say the least. So how come he performed so well in South Africa? Favourable conditions? Or has he improved a hell of a lot during the short space of time?

From what I saw I imagine KP and co would be well up for facing him. Just looking for a little more insight into the bloke.

I saw him playing for Middlesex as well, and as you say he looked nothing special. Perhaps though he wasn't giving 100%? You'd expect any player to give a bit extra when they play for their country.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Talking of Stuart Clark, I saw him play a few games for Middlesex when he was over here and he looked very average to say the least. So how come he performed so well in South Africa? Favourable conditions? Or has he improved a hell of a lot during the short space of time?

From what I saw I imagine KP and co would be well up for facing him. Just looking for a little more insight into the bloke.

Stuart Clark never looks anything special. He's a very deceptive bowler really. He bowled wonderfully in South Africa though.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Gillespie in England now = laughable. Clark HAS to be ahead of him. Even MacGill.

30 wickets @ 31 is "laughable"? Anyway, Australia have never really picked players based on county form. I don't think it's especially relevant, provided that his figures aren't embarassing. As it is they are merely average.

 

[Craig]

Vaughn is saying he'll be fit on the radio now.

I take it Collingwood would pay for his return? Imagining he was fit I'd say the Ashes tommorrow;

Tresco
Strauss
Vaughn
Cook
Pietersen
Bell
Flintoff
C.Read
M.Hoggard
S.Harmison
M.Panesar

Is it atall likely we'll only play 4 bowlers? We do only need to draw the series to retain the ashes.

Wouldn't Bell and Pietersen swap spots?

 

[GIMH]

IMO Pietersen needs to bat in the top 5. Batting at 4 suits him well for me.

 

[greg]

Originally Posted by Hanuma
Vaughn is saying he'll be fit on the radio now.

I take it Collingwood would pay for his return? Imagining he was fit I'd say the Ashes tommorrow;

Tresco
Strauss
Vaughn
Cook
Pietersen
Bell
Flintoff
C.Read
M.Hoggard
S.Harmison
M.Panesar

Is it atall likely we'll only play 4 bowlers? We do only need to draw the series to retain the ashes.

I think Vaughan should bat at 5. He's a very, very good player of spin and should have dropped down before IMO.

 

[aussie]

I think Vaughan should bat at 5. He's a very, very good player of spin and should have dropped down before IMO.

yea i agree, along with Trescothick, KP & Flintoff (to an extent), he is one of England few good players of spin when in good form.

 

[greg]

yea i agree, along with Trescothick, KP & Flintoff (to an extent), he is one of England few good players of spin when in good form.

I don't think Trescothick is a particularly "good" player of spin. He can be effective and dominate them but i wouldn't back him to perform in all match situations. In a situation under pressure with runs of secondary importance i think he is pretty vulnerable. Bear in mind that for Trescothick to be facing spinners there's a good chance that England will be in a good position anyway.

I think Bell is a good player of spin.

 

[tooextracool]

I think at this point i'd pick Bell over Pietersen, Collingwood and Cook. The reason being that Bell is easily England's best player of spin bowling and is the only one in the entire side that reads the ball from the hand and not from the pitch. I wouldnt be too surprised if Warne ties Cook all ends up because a player that reads the ball from the pitch and is unsure of whether to play forward or back is always going to have problems against the very best spinners.
At the end of the day though, out of the 4 middle order players i would pick the 3 that impress most in the warm up games, rather than argue right now abt which one is best as i am a firm believer of picking players on form. I might even consider playing all 4 if Anderson and Jones are unfit.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Warne got Bell 4 times last year. If he does read it from the hand he doesn't play it all that well.

 

[greg]

Warne got Bell 4 times last year. If he does read it from the hand he doesn't play it all that well.

Well 3 times actually, one of which he was given out wrongly (caught behind) and one of which was a leg break which didn't turn. But anyway i think his problems last year against Warne (which were not really any more apparent than against the rest of the Aussie attack - only Vaughan got out fewer times against Warne) weren't really related to his technique. In general he wasn't in long enough to form a judgement.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well 3 times actually, one of which he was given out wrongly (caught behind) and one of which was a leg break which didn't turn. But anyway i think his problems last year against Warne (which were not really any more apparent than against the rest of the Aussie attack - only Vaughan got out fewer times against Warne) weren't really related to his technique. In general he wasn't in long enough to form a judgement.

If that's a case for the defence I think a lot of your clients are gonna end up hung!

 

[greg]

If that's a case for the defence I think a lot of your clients are gonna end up hung!

Not at all. You are using last summer as evidence of him not being able to play spin. I am using last summer, the winter and this summer.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Not at all. You are using last summer as evidence of him not being able to play spin. I am using last summer, the winter and this summer.

Well I don't think "not being in long enough" is generally considered desirable in a batter, myself. & It may not be spin per se, just highest quality spin. Good as he is, Kaneria isn't Warne.

I personally think Bell has arguably the best technique of all the batsmen in our team, with no exceptions; what concerns me is his mental side. He certainly has a diffident air (it may just be a perception, but if he comes across as lacking confidence you can bet the Aussies will seize on it) which Cook, Colly & KP very much do not. His performances against Pakistan (a much weakened Pakistan) also have the slight air of FTB about them.

 

[greg]

Well I don't think "not being in long enough" is generally considered desirable in a batter, myself. & It may not be spin per se, just highest quality spin. Good as he is, Kaneria isn't Warne.

I personally think Bell has arguably the best technique of all the batsmen in our team, with no exceptions; what concerns me is his mental side. He certainly has a diffident air (it may just be a perception, but if he comes across as lacking confidence you can bet the Aussies will seize on it) which Cook, Colly & KP very much do not. His performances against Pakistan (a much weakened Pakistan) also have the slight air of FTB about them.

Well that's a completely different issue to what we were debating. I wasn't advocating the merits or otherwise of Bell as a test match batsman, simply saying he is a good player of spin. That is not necessarily the same as being effective (hence my argument about Trescothick). In fact we are probably arguing on the same side here.

FWIW I think there has been a notable shift in Bell's demeanour since the second test. He has had a much more jaunty, even ****y, air - you can see that partly by his increasing willingness to get involved in verbal altercations with the bowlers (and batsmen when he's at short leg). Whether that is just a consequence of him scoring runs and getting rave reviews against a weak attack, who knows - it may disappear as soon as it comes. But i think the signs are there that he is a different player to that of last summer.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Well that's a completely different issue to what we were debating. I wasn't advocating the merits or otherwise of Bell as a test match batsman, simply saying he is a good player of spin. That is not necessarily the same as being effective (hence my argument about Trescothick). In fact we are probably arguing on the same side here.

FWIW I think there has been a notable shift in Bell's demeanour since the second test. He has had a much more jaunty, even ****y, air - you can see that partly by his increasing willingness to get involved in verbal altercations with the bowlers (and batsmen when he's at short leg). Whether that is just a consequence of him scoring runs and getting rave reviews against a weak attack, who knows - it may disappear as soon as it comes. But i think the signs are there that he is a different player to that of last summer.

Yeah, my initial response was really more aimed at TEC's contention that he'd take Bell over pretty much our whole middle order based on his current form. He's definitely played Kaneria well, but I just remember last year; inaccurately, as it turns out! But his showings against Warne have left me with graver doubts than his showings against Lee or McGrath.

 

[tooextracool]

Yeah, my initial response was really more aimed at TEC's contention that he'd take Bell over pretty much our whole middle order based on his current form. He's definitely played Kaneria well, but I just remember last year; inaccurately, as it turns out! But his showings against Warne have left me with graver doubts than his showings against Lee or McGrath.

I'm more concerned about his showings against Mcgrath than i am about Warne. I think he wont have too many problems against Warne. He has a tendency to push at deliveries just outside the off stump without moving his feet. As far was Warne is concerned, the times he did get out to him, they were genuinely good deliveries or leg breaks that didnt turn. I dont think he ever had problems picking Warne during the series, and hes picked Kaneria better than anyone else in the side.