Players who played way more internationals than they should

[lockton2skipper]

ian salisbury by a mile,

 

[Pothas]

Have heard of all of them and even saw live a few games that Ratra was involved in - he played ODIs against England in 2001/02 and Tests in 2002.

I've seen a few deliveries from Kulkarni (presuming that's Nilesh Kulkarni, that is) as well, given that he bowled in the famous Jayasuriya 340 match.

Must have seen Ratra play live at Lords, do not have the memory that you obviously possess though, cannot remember him at all.

Just looked him up and he made 1 run on the day that I went to so it is hardly surprising that he did not make much of an impression along with a couple of other no hopers called Sourav and Sachin who made very few runs that day.

 

[Richard]

Ajay Ratra was one of a crowd of mediocrity of Indian wicketkeepers between Nayan Mongia and the Karthik\Dhoni era.

 

[Pothas]

Ajay Ratra was one of a crowd of mediocrity of Indian wicketkeepers between Nayan Mongia and the Karthik\Dhoni era.

Was that the same series that Parthiv Patel made his debut when he was about 7 years old?

 

[Richard]

Put a 1 before that, but yes it was. Ratra was injured for the Second Test and Patel came in; Patel himself was then injured for the Fourth and Ratra came back.

Unbelievable just how bad a wicketkeeper Parthiv Patel really was sometimes - what's even more difficult to comprehend is that Ratra's predecessor Deep Dasgupta was even worse.

 

[fredfertang]

Hate to say it in many ways but I think this is true of Ian Botham

 

[AaronK]

I believe subcontenent players are known for this.. most of the time they are pushed out of their teams because they keep wanting to play.. the best example right now is Sanath Jaysuriya.. he should have been retired long time ago..

 

[DaRick]

There's a massive difference between being good enough for Test cricket, and being good enough for selection.

Well ideally, not being good enough for Test cricket should not see you get selected - if we're dealing with a Test-class side. It doesn't always happen like that, though.

But you'll still agree that there are many BAN/ZIM players who should never have been near international cricket in the first place, I trust?

 

[DaRick]

Unbelievable just how bad a wicketkeeper Parthiv Patel really was sometimes - what's even more difficult to comprehend is that Ratra's predecessor Deep Dasgupta was even worse.

Apparently Dasgupta was more of a backstop than a real keeper.

At times, Parthiv Patel couldn't even do that. Once, Michael Clarke gave him an incredibly easy catch...which he somehow missed completely and let fly to the fence for four. He'd have to be the worst keeper I've ever seen.

 

[Cruxdude]

Drop Dasgupta is the worst Indian keeper ever. His dropping skills are legendary.

 

[Richard]

Hate to say it in many ways but I think this is true of Ian Botham

This is one I've always wanted to ask someone who was around at the time and makes sensible posts... when exactly do you think Botham's Test career should've been terminated? There's no question, surely, that he should never have come back in 1991, but should he have played in 1989? Or should 1987 have been the end of it?

 

[Richard]

Apparently Dasgupta was more of a backstop than a real keeper.

At times, Parthiv Patel couldn't even do that. Once, Michael Clarke gave him an incredibly easy catch...which he somehow missed completely and let fly to the fence for four. He'd have to be the worst keeper I've ever seen.

Trust me, I saw them both, and Parthiv Patel for all he could be woeful could actually also be fairly competent. Dasgupta was someone who clearly had accidents waiting to happen all the time, and sure enough they happened with great regularity.

Neither are worthy of the tag "wicketkeeper" in the sense of being more than a glorified backstop. Ajay Ratra was miles away from being a Test-class cricketer, but God, at least he could keep wicket well enough. Would've been so much better if he'd just been the one gloveman used between the Karim\Dighe\Dahiya\MSK era and the Karthik\Dhoni one.

 

[fredfertang]

This is one I've always wanted to ask someone who was around at the time and makes sensible posts... when exactly do you think Botham's Test career should've been terminated? There's no question, surely, that he should never have come back in 1991, but should he have played in 1989? Or should 1987 have been the end of it?

After, and in truth probably prior to, the 86/87 Ashes tour Botham's bowling at Test level was wholly lacking in penetration. His batting technique, I always felt, was second to none and that had he chosen to/been able to apply himself to the task I believe he could have been an outstanding batsman in the late 80's early 90's - however as things turned out he chose not to/couldn't and with hindsight I don't think he should have played again after 86/87

......... but of couse ITB was box office and there was always the hope he might one day roll back the years - he was always a popular selction

 

[Richard]

Yeah, Botham as a batsman was still quality from 1982/83 to 1987, provided he wasn't playing West Indies; his bowling, against teams other than West Indies, still had its moments, particularly in the 1985 Ashes, but was of a considerably lesser standard than had previously been the case. It's interesting that you don't think he should've been playing in 1987 given that his last innings of that season showcased almost certainly the best defensive play he'd ever demonstrated and saved a Test (albeit the series was already lost).

What I've never actually been sure is why he missed 1987/88 and 1988; was he injured, or was he dropped then recalled in 1989? He certainly simply wasn't picked in 1990 or 1990/91, when things were going reasonably well with the side appearing to be moving-on, then when they started to look like going wrong again in 1991 he was back (on the basis of, as discussed previously, a season that looks pretty good to the casual eye but in reality wasn't really very substantial).

 

[fredfertang]

Yeah, Botham as a batsman was still quality from 1982/83 to 1987, provided he wasn't playing West Indies; his bowling, against teams other than West Indies, still had its moments, particularly in the 1985 Ashes, but was of a considerably lesser standard than had previously been the case. It's interesting that you don't think he should've been playing in 1987 given that his last innings of that season showcased almost certainly the best defensive play he'd ever demonstrated and saved a Test (albeit the series was already lost).

What I've never actually been sure is why he missed 1987/88 and 1988; was he injured, or was he dropped then recalled in 1989? He certainly simply wasn't picked in 1990 or 1990/91, when things were going reasonably well with the side appearing to be moving-on, then when they started to look like going wrong again in 1991 he was back (on the basis of, as discussed previously, a season that looks pretty good to the casual eye but in reality wasn't really very substantial).

Mainly,IIRC, it was a case of the public not appreciating what the selectors knew ie that he was past it - part of his problem was that he was so naturally gifted - in his pomp he never needed to work at his game and when he eventually needed to he didn't know how to (just my opinion of course) - but every time he ran into a bit of form the tabloids used to get the old bandwagon rolling and the selectors eventually rolled over

 

[GuyFromLancs]

This prompted me to look at Beefy on statsguru and it would appear he reached a statistical peak in 1982, of course I am not saying he should have finished then but if he did, would be be regarded as the best genuine allrounder ever?

Matches
51

Runs
2833

Batting Average
38.80

Wickets
231

Bowling Average
23.06

..........awesome.

 

[Richard]

Our old friend Swervy (coincidentally enough, also from Lancs if an adopted Australian) posted several times that if Botham had retired after the 1982 summer he'd be regarded as the 2nd-best all-rounder after Sobers. The truth of this is debateable, but it is of course a possibility.

Reality showed that Imran Khan managed to keep-up the sort of performance both he and Botham managed for a considerable amount longer.

An even more interesting question is what might've been Botham's record come the end of the 1982 summer had he never been given the captaincy? Intreguing for the fact that it will never, ever be known whether the captaincy truly was the definitve factor behind his vastly reduced performances during his spell attempting it.

 

[fredfertang]

.......... or if he'd been given the captaincy in the late 80's

 

[GuyFromLancs]

Our old friend Swervy (coincidentally enough, also from Lancs if an adopted Australian) posted several times that if Botham had retired after the 1982 summer he'd be regarded as the 2nd-best all-rounder after Sobers. The truth of this is debateable, but it is of course a possibility.

Reality showed that Imran Khan managed to keep-up the sort of performance both he and Botham managed for a considerable amount longer.

An even more interesting question is what might've been Botham's record come the end of the 1982 summer had he never been given the captaincy? Intreguing for the fact that it will never, ever be known whether the captaincy truly was the definitve factor behind his vastly reduced performances during his spell attempting it.

Us Lancs lads are good with numbers, all the generations of penny counting you see .

I hear what you say about Khan and I don't discuss the 80s players too much because I was simply too young to watch them for myself, but consider that Botham also had 11 test centuries by this point as well and how he managed to combine them with his 5 wicket hauls it seems to suggest that Botham was a genuine match winner in all departments whilst Khan appears to have evolved over a period of time from a bowler into a batsman.

It depends on how you define allrounder really.

 

[Richard]

I define all-rounder as someone close to being equal in batting and bowling ability. And for 5 years, Botham was in Imran's class in that respect. For 10 years, he wasn't.

Put it this way - Imran went from crap all-rounder to bowler-who-batted-a-bit, to magnificent all-rounder, to batsman-who-didn't-bowl. Botham went from brilliant all-rounder to mediocre all-rounder to crap all-rounder. That's the way I (drunkenly) see it.