Pietersen V Smith

[Quaggas]

Well if we discard Sydney 09, then we should discard last year's Ashes so KP's averages against Australia rises slightly.

And half of his innings against Australia, therefore, were as a brash debutant with zero Test experience against the best team in the world.

Oh, and if we're talking captaincy, KP averages 52.4 as captain

Fair enough.

Only throwing out Sydney 09 because he played w/ a broken finger in the 2nd innings. Point is more that averages based on two or so series have huge errors.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Hence "all else equal." Would Smith's batting improve w/o the burden of captaincy?

Impossible to gauge. As such you can just compare them based on results, not additional pressures they're dealing with to produce those results. For all we know the captaincy makes things easier for Smith as a batsman. If you're comparing them as batsmen, and you're comparing what they offer to the team with the bat, captaincy doesn't come into it. You can't assume what the impact of the captaincy is.

 

[four_or_six]

Pietersen didn't have the opportunity that Smith has had to lead his side though. And if you want to bring up Pietersen's average leadership when he was captain, I'd suggest that Graeme Smith was far from faultless for a lot of his early leadership.

Yes, but we're not talking early captain Graeme Smith here, surely? At that age, anyway, KP was having his kit thrown of the balcony by his county captain he'd antagonised him so much.

Anyway, I'm trying to make a distinction between captaincy and leadership. You can be a leader without being a captain, and I don't feel that KP is a leader in our batting lineup the same way that Smith or Kallis are in the Saffa one.

 

[grecian]

KP definitely a better bowler.

Well wouldn't say definitely but I really hate KP's bowling, has a lot of attributes, yet just comes out with floated filth. Test averages back me up too, though it's ****e against ****er admittedly.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Anyway, I'm trying to make a distinction between captaincy and leadership. You can be a leader without being a captain, and I don't feel that KP is a leader in our batting lineup the same way that Smith or Kallis are in the Saffa one.

When he's playing well he is, but fair enough that he's not on the same level as Smith in that regard. But you have to wonder how much of that is due to the fact that Smith has been the actual leader of South Africa for his entire Test career. He's grown into leadership while he's grown into Test class batsmanship. For him, the two were unavoidably linked.

 

[aussie]

Yes, but we're not talking early captain Graeme Smith here, surely? At that age, anyway, KP was having his kit thrown of the balcony by his county captain he'd antagonised him so much.

Anyway, I'm trying to make a distinction between captaincy and leadership. You can be a leader without being a captain, and I don't feel that KP is a leader in our batting lineup the same way that Smith or Kallis are in the Saffa one.

KP certainly is. The difference is that KP againts joke teams tends to get himself out irritatingly. Againts the big teams KP is significance as "leader" in ENGs batting line-up is key as Smith/Kallis for SA as we saw in past Ashes battles.

 

[four_or_six]

When he's playing well he is, but fair enough that he's not on the same level as Smith in that regard. But you have to wonder how much of that is due to the fact that Smith has been the actual leader of South Africa for his entire Test career. He's grown into leadership while he's grown into Test class batsmanship. For him, the two were unavoidably linked.

I'm not sure that's it, though maybe it is. But still, all that means is it's a skill he has that KP doesn't which makes him more valuable to the team imo.

Also, perhaps it's just because KP looks so flashy sometimes, whereas Smith and Kallis more gritty and therefore you feel that their teammates are working hard to emulate them.

 

[GIMH]

Fair enough.

Only throwing out Sydney 09 because he played w/ a broken finger in the 2nd innings. Point is more that averages based on two or so series have huge errors.

Yeah and KP played the Ashes 09 with a ****ed achilles.

I agree with you that using averages throws up errors however KP's performances against Australia speak for themselves.

 

[Quaggas]

Impossible to gauge. As such you can just compare them based on results, not additional pressures they're dealing with to produce those results. For all we know the captaincy makes things easier for Smith as a batsman. If you're comparing them as batsmen, and you're comparing what they offer to the team with the bat, captaincy doesn't come into it. You can't assume what the impact of the captaincy is.

The OP refers to batting in pressure situations. Captaincy adds pressure, and I doubt that off field ego stroking outweighs it.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

The OP refers to batting in pressure situations. Captaincy adds pressure, and I doubt that off field ego stroking outweighs it.

Well Lara batted better as captain than not as captain, so it's not necessarily the hindrance it's implied to be.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Voted KP as he's the bigger talent (plays straighter, bigger range of shots, etc) and, as GIMH has already observed, class is permanent.

I will say Pietersen needs to take stock of himself sometime soon tho. With his ability he could be one of the greats, but is in danger of becoming a Goweresque vague disappointment. Like the flaxon haired left-hander he'll end up with a jolly decent test record, but not one that his talent might've merited. Saying "oh, it's just the way he plays" is all well and good, but if he wants to be remembered as more than just the best batsman in our current side adjustments have to be made.

 

[Kyle]

Yeah, would agree that he's just not himself. Is it the injury, is it still a hangover from the captaincy issue (you could argue he's not quite been himself since then, only one of the innings I highlighted came following that) or is it just a loss of form, after all every player suffers them at some point, right?

Been trying to work out whether or not we should take him to Bangladesh.

It's a good point, but feels like the injury to me. I would personally have him in Bangladesh; either giving him license or responsibility.

 

[Cruxdude]

While KP is the better batsman and more thrilling to watch too, I would go for Smith in the team. KP seems to be a guy who puts style over substance at times. Him getting out to bowlers just because he doesn't rate them is really the most irritating part of his batting. Still remember Dhoni getting Yuvraj to bowl in a test match immediately after KP came in and KP tried his best to oblige. Smith is a guy I admire a lot. Came in young, seemed to be a joke captain and now is a player who plays as his team needs him to.

 

[Uppercut]

While KP is the better batsman and more thrilling to watch too, I would go for Smith in the team. KP seems to be a guy who puts style over substance at times. Him getting out to bowlers just because he doesn't rate them is really the most irritating part of his batting. Still remember Dhoni getting Yuvraj to bowl in a test match immediately after KP came in and KP tried his best to oblige. Smith is a guy I admire a lot. Came in young, seemed to be a joke captain and now is a player who plays as his team needs him to.

What the hell! He scored a brilliant century that day!

 

[Cruxdude]

What the hell! He scored a brilliant century that day!

He may have, I don't remember that. But his ego gets him out a lot more than it should. Correct that and he would be averaging 55 as he should.

 

[Uppercut]

Haha, early in his innings he hit a drive off Yuvraj that bounced three feet in front of cover. Then he hit a stunning century. Somehow the story has been transformed over time into "KP almost got himself out to Yuvraj because he's arrogant and not as good as he thinks".

 

[four_or_six]

Haha, early in his innings he hit a drive off Yuvraj that bounced three feet in front of cover. Then he hit a stunning century. Somehow the story has been transformed over time into "KP almost got himself out to Yuvraj because he's arrogant and not as good as he thinks".

Yes, it was just lots of silly posturing between Yuvraj and KP in that series, but certainly it didn't get KP out. I think it's just one of those things that looks silly and then people remember that instead.

 

[gwo]

Disagree with most here

In my side I prefer a top 6 of

Watson
Katich
Ponting
Pietersen
Clarke
Hussey

than

Watson
Smith
Ponting
Clarke
Hussey
Katich

Just my thoughts. Also KP has much more talent imo than Smith and being in a distinctly mediocre side puts the pressure on him much more.

 

[aussie]

Obviously you don't discard dead rubbers, but my point still stands. Runs against good teams =/ pressure runs.

Sure. But the AUS attack in 08/09 series (the AUS leg) was not a good attack. Up until the SCG test it was only Johnson who was bowling well, so Smith wasb't under the typical pressure you would get from AUS bowlers in that series.

 

[Cruxdude]

Haha, early in his innings he hit a drive off Yuvraj that bounced three feet in front of cover. Then he hit a stunning century. Somehow the story has been transformed over time into "KP almost got himself out to Yuvraj because he's arrogant and not as good as he thinks".

I didn't say he isn't as good as he thinks. He is a very talented batsman and has the potential to be one of the best. But the best do not toss away their wickets against pie chuckers. If you had seen that test match you would have remembered the shots he played in that over. He almost played on and gave a catch to mid off in 6 balls. If he controls his urges he can be great.