Pietersen V Smith

[Uppercut]

Then you disagree for different reasons than Camps.

Can you explain why they're a better indicator of "quality"? What do you define quality as?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Individual runs against Australia are definitely more important than those against Bangladesh, for mine. I can see what you're saying, Uppercut, but I feel that against a team like Australia you're always more likely to be under pressure and in pressure situations than against lesser teams.

 

[Uppercut]

Individual runs against Australia are definitely more important than those against Bangladesh, for mine. I can see what you're saying, Uppercut, but I feel that against a team like Australia you're always more likely to be under pressure and in pressure situations than against lesser teams.

Bangladesh are unique in that they're so bad that pressure situations against them are exceptionally rare. I don't even consider games involving them as tests.

 

[four_or_six]

Where did I say you can?

I just thought you were saying that it was most important to help your team win tests, and I was trying to say that you can make a contribution that should help your team win a test, and then later on in the match it's screwed up through no fault of your own. I agree with the importance of match-winning innings, definitely, but it's hard to define.

 

[Uppercut]

I just thought you were saying that it was most important to help your team win tests, and I was trying to say that you can make a contribution that should help your team win a test, and then later on in the match it's screwed up through no fault of your own. I agree with the importance of match-winning innings, definitely, but it's hard to define.

That's pretty much exactly the point I'm making. You can't define it, but it certainly isn't defined as "runs against better teams".

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Bangladesh are unique in that they're so bad that pressure situations against them are exceptionally rare. I don't even consider games involving them as tests.

Ok. Australia and New Zealand.
Australia under Steve Waugh and any other team in the world.

 

[BoyBrumby]

Have to say, if we're removing Bangladesh, Fat Gray's average drops nearly 2.5 RPI.

 

[four_or_six]

Okay, so here's an interesting (?!) one:

Man of the match awards in wins/draws...

Smith - 8/40 wins (20%) and 2/17 draws (12%)
KP - 3/19 wins (16%) and 2/21 draws (10%)

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Doesn't say anything significant really.

 

[Zinzan]

It's just an area where I disagree with most people. I specifically define a good test cricketer as one who helps his team win test matches. .

A painfully simplistic outlook that, so swayed towards players in stronger teams.

 

[Zinzan]

Individual runs against Australia are definitely more important than those against Bangladesh, for mine. I can see what you're saying, Uppercut, but I feel that against a team like Australia you're always more likely to be under pressure and in pressure situations than against lesser teams.

Agree entirely with this

 

[Uppercut]

A painfully simplistic outlook that, so swayed towards players in stronger teams.

No, not even slightly. You're misinterpreting me too .

Did you read the subsequent posts on the subject?

 

[Briony]

I think with the runs against Australia, Smith is compared a bit harshly in that in 2005/6, he copped about three stinkers against us which would have been overturned on review. He had trouble converting starts into significant scores. Additionally KP was probably a bit lucky in his last series here in that he made runs on very flat pitches in Adelaide and Brisbane. SA doesn't seem to play tests against Australia in Adelaide these days. In the Melbourne and Sydney tests when there was assistance for the bowlers he struggled. I also think when you consider his Australian record per se, you might say he confronted Warne and McGrath when they were clearly past their peak. His best innings was almost certainly at the Oval where he launched his career but he was dropped at 0 and 15 so it could have all been a bit different. Was dropped another twice later on too.

KP is clearly the greater talent (if a late blossoming one) and maybe has a slighty more suspect temperament. Both interestingly have similar scoring rates in test cricket which are quite a bit higher than the average player which suggests they can both play influential innings when on song and tend to like to dominate attacks.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I think with the runs against Australia, Smith is compared a bit harshly in that in 2005/6, he copped about three stinkers against us which would have been overturned on review. He had trouble converting starts into significant scores. Additionally KP was probably a bit lucky in his last series here in that he made runs on very flat pitches in Adelaide and Brisbane. SA doesn't seem to play tests against Australia in Adelaide these days. In the Melbourne and Sydney tests when there was assistance for the bowlers he struggled. I also think when you consider his Australian record per se, you might say he confronted Warne and McGrath when they were clearly past their peak. His best innings was almost certainly at the Oval where he launched his career but he was dropped at 0 and 15 so it could have all been a bit different. Was dropped another twice later on too.

KP is clearly the greater talent (if a late blossoming one) and maybe has a slighty more suspect temperament. Both interestingly have similar scoring rates in test cricket which are quite a bit higher than the average player which suggests they can both play influential innings when on song and tend to like to dominate attacks.

Hopefully. No sign of the late (ish, he's still not 30, which isn't old as batsmen go nowadays) blossoming yet tho. I fact one of the criticisms I think could be reasonably leveled at Pietersen is that his game hasn't really developed since his debut.

 

[steds]

Have to say, if we're removing Bangladesh, Fat Gray's average drops nearly 2.5 RPI.

Hate it when people do that. It would say alot more about a player if they consistently failed against the likes of Bangladesh than if they scored runs.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

But if a player has played a lot more against Bangladesh opposition than another player has, I can understand the reasoning.

 

[Briony]

But if a player has played a lot more against Bangladesh opposition than another player has, I can understand the reasoning.

Interesting that in the Warne/Murali debate the Bangladesh chestnut usually comes out but when Warne first played against the Bangers they tonked him all around their park.

 

[four_or_six]

Less than one run in the averages now, for people who like to remove Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

Smith 48.06, KP 48.60.

In fact there are those people that remove the world XI test too... Smith now ahead.

On a side-note, Smith is monstrous against us. A hundred every three matches.

 

[zaremba]

Right now, Graeme Smith, because he seems to get runs when they are most needed. And KP's out of form. Ask me in another couple of months and I might give a different answer.

 

[Sir Alex]

An update (runs, average, 100s)

Kevin - 5175, 48.82, 16
Smith - 7170, 50.49, 21

And age is also on Smith's side (29 vs 30). Smith's figures are scary, assuming he goes through the same peak that great batsmen do (ie around their thirties), he could end up with runs comparable to Tendulkar's.