Peak Bumrah vs Peak Imran

[Randomfan]

Again, I am not sure why just Imran is penalised for ball tampering if the entire era was guilty of it.

I think it comes down to massive difference in career avg of home versus away for IK, No other great has that kind of disparity between home and away. I am sure biased home umpiring was not limited to Pakistan or bottle cap was not limited(perhaps bottle cap was) to Pakistan but some tampering must have happened at other venues as well.

But how many venues had blood on players fingers openly in front of umpires due to bottle caps and umpires totally ignoring it? So it comes down to extent if it. That's why quoting great home series for IK is less impressinve, impressive his away good series.

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deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned.

As old as the hills

The thorny subject of ball tampering has stalked the game for many years, but it is only in the last couple of decades that it has become something a wider audience has been aware of. Arguably, it has been going on since cricket's earliest days, but invas

www.espncricinfo.com

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[Randomfan]

I think someone just posted above the period between 1980-1988 when he was a beast away from home over a sample of 20 tests. Yes, there are better away performers over the entire history but what you are arguing is best peak performance away from home to judge the quality of peak.

In case of Imran, does he have the quality with an avg of 20 over 20 away tests between 1980-1988? Yes. So, when we look at overall peak period which would include both home and away, he definitely is right up there with the very best peak of fast bowling.

Now, the debate that his phenomenal numbers in home conditions is due to bottle caps and home umpiring is a different one altogether and people over here can comprehend it in whatever way they feel is correct.

Debate over phenemonol numbers at home due to bottle caps and home umpiring is not a different debate when talking peak period of IK. It's very closely related. Since it was not possible to use bottle caps so openly away and eveyrone was on equal footing away in that era, we can see how everyone stacks up when we eliminate home in the same period. That's the only way to judge quality of peak. Home was tainted big time.

IK surely has very good numbers away but far less impresisve than home even during his peak. Also, no one really thinks that doing it for 20 tests is same as doing it for 40-50 tests and in case of Mcgrath it went for 70-80 tests. IK surely did have great 20 tests away and in absence of those tests, I don't think anyone would have talked much about IK. That's the reason he is rated among the best and among the top 10 in history by most fans. IK's home performance does not really impress me , but great away series, fantastic. That's impressive.

 

[subshakerz]

I think it comes down to massive difference in career avg of home versus away for IK, No other great has that kind of disparity between home and away. I am sure biased home umpiring was not limited to Pakistan or bottle cap was not limited(perhaps bottle cap was) to Pakistan but some tampering must have happened at other venues as well.

But how many venues had blood on players fingers openly in front of umpires due to bottle caps and umpires totally ignoring it? So it comes down to extent if it. That's why quoting great home series for IK is less impressinve, impressive his away good series.

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deliberately obvious in an attempt to get a reaction, even gouging the ball as he talked to the umpire. Still nothing was said.

So eagerly was he vandalizing the ball that at one stage he cut himself on the jagged bottle top. Even the sight of a bowler with blood freely flowing from a sliced finger did not cause any disquiet as far as the officials were concerned.

As old as the hills

The thorny subject of ball tampering has stalked the game for many years, but it is only in the last couple of decades that it has become something a wider audience has been aware of. Arguably, it has been going on since cricket's earliest days, but invas

www.espncricinfo.com

--------------------

Just to note those incidents are in a series Imran was not even playing in.

Claiming his home success is just the product of ball tampering is just reductive. The reality is that he had the pace and reverse swing was a new weapon that bamboozled the bats of the time. You can see Imran producing that sort of boom swing in tests outside too. You want to give zero credit to skill which is just double standards frankly.

Did they ball tamper? Of course. Is there any evidence that Imran himself regularly used bottle caps as you claim in tests? No. It was scratching and scuffing the ball on the flat surfaces near the pitches that were the main tactics. Is that substantially worse than seam lifting and using foreign substances on the ball as others did? Maybe because Imran achieved more success with it?

As mentioned, when neutral umpires were used in 86 against WI, Imran achieved the same if not better figures with reverse.

And again, all bowlers tampered in that era. To be consistent you should be deducting points from Marshall and Hadlee against McGrath because the former two were tampering their entire careers. Will you do that?

 

[DrWolverine]

I think it comes down to massive difference in career avg of home versus away for IK

I knew there was a difference but not like this

 

[Randomfan]

Just to note those incidents are in a series Imran was not even playing in.

...

And again, all bowlers tampered in that era. To be consistent you should be deducting points from Marshall and Hadlee against McGrath because the former two were tampering their entire careers. Will you do that?

Yes, it was ongoing issue in Pakistan with everyone talking about it. With so much talk and yet it was happening openly in front of umpires near the end of IK's retirement days.

Yes, I have less trust on home stats of older era before neutral umpires really kicked in and clamped down on brazen ball tampering and hugely favoring home teams. That's why I find looking at away stats more useful when comparing across era. Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath had stellar career away stats and I rate them highly for that. Mcgrath pretty much played entire career with at least one neutral umpire so let's not club him there.

Steyn, Starc and many other in modern era were also involved in tampering, but imagine able to do it brazenly in front of umpire without all the cameras around you? Even Pringle looked like an ATG in Pakistan with bottle caps. Steyn, Starc, Bumrah etc would have ran riots in older era. Modern era we have to worry far less about it due to neutral umpires and camera. It simply imposisble to get away same way as older era.

Older era , it's best to look at how players did away to get actual picture of ability of players. Comparing across era, it's best to focus on away. Indirectly, I am penalizing everyone's home record by doing so if you call it penalizing.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, it was ongoing issue in Pakistan with everyone talking about it. With so much talk and yet it was happening openly in front of umpires near the end of IK's retirement days.

Yes, I have less trust on home stats of older era before neutral umpires really kicked in and clamped down on brazen ball tampering and hugely favoring home teams. That's why I find looking at away stats more useful when comparing across era. Marshall, Hadlee and McGrath had stellar career away stats and I rate them highly for that. Mcgrath pretty much played entire career with at least one neutral umpire so let's not club him there.

Steyn, Starc and many other in modern era were also involved in tampering, but imagine able to do it brazenly in front of umpire without all the cameras around you? Even Pringle looked like an ATG in Pakistan with bottle caps. Steyn, Starc, Bumrah etc would have ran riots in older era. Modern era we have to worry far less about it due to neutral umpires and camera. It simply imposisble to get away same way as older era.

Older era , it's best to look at how players did away to get actual picture of ability of players. Comparing across era, it's best to focus on away. Indirectly, I am penalizing everyone's home record by doing so if you call it penalizing.

Well if you disregard all home tests for all older greats then you can do your approach don't expect us to follow.

 

[Randomfan]

I knew there was a difference but not like this
View attachment 45130

Yah, against non-minnows only one venue, Eng, when he averages sub 25 ( that too 24.63 so not hitting it out of the park)

But look at 38 tests at home, avg of 19. Really hitting it out of the park.

It will jump out to anyone because others like Marshall, Hadlee and many others were also bowling home and away at same time . None of them had such a massive gap and they did far better away. That's why drawing equal equal with others about tampeing/home umpire does not make sense.

To avoid this all , I try to focus on away stats for everyone because then everyone is on equal footings and no question of who benefitted more from home umpires. IK's away record falls short of other greats in his era and also across era.

 

[Randomfan]

Well if you disregard all home tests for all older greats then you can do your approach don't expect us to follow.

I will give more weight to away in any era due to difficulty in doing well away.


For older era,

Not disregard, simply give far more weight to away to judge quality when comparing.

I won't say , let's remove 150 wickets from career because it came at home, but I will always look at what the players did away and if there is a massive gap in home and away in older era then I am not really going to feel impressed with stellar home record of anyone in older era. Disregarding will be going too far, but not getting impressed is a logical conclusion.

The same holds true when making across era comparisons. Simply take their away to see how they stack up. Since eras are different, we can't only take raw stats and compare. In addition to raw stats, we can always look at what a stand out away career record looked in each era to make sense of quality.

 

[DrWolverine]

Yah, against non-minnows only one venue, Eng, when he averages sub 25 ( that too 24.63 so not hitting it out of the park)

But look at 38 tests at home, avg of 19. Really hitting it out of the park.

It will jump out to anyone because others like Marshall, Hadlee and many others were also bowling home and away in same . None of them had such a massive gap and they did far better away. That's why drawing equal equal with others about tampeing/home umpire does not make sense.

To avoid this all , I try to focus on away stats for everyone because then everyone is on equal footings and no question of who benefitted more from home umpires. IK's away record falls short of other greats in his era and also across era.

Imran. Donald. Lillee. Holding. Garner. Akram
I have them roughly in the same tier.
Maybe I have push Imran lower down in my list.

 

[sams daneal]

Imran Khan is underrated and bumrah is overrated.

How people's are rating Steyn better than Anderson and bumrah better than imran Khan ?

 

[Thala_0710]

How people's are rating Steyn better than Anderson and bumrah better than imran Khan ?

This is just peak not overall. Steyn vs Anderson on the other hand is not even controversial

 

[sams daneal]

This is just peak not overall. Steyn vs Anderson on the other hand is not even controversial

Steyn performance in away is not great either? His AVG in aus , Eng are bad.

 

[Randomfan]

How people's are rating Steyn better than Anderson and bumrah better than imran Khan ?

Steyn and Anderson? They bowled together and played in the same era. Why don't you present a case for Anderosn being better in a dedicated thread. If you have not watched their career then you may learn something about both players. Just present what you think and many will present you what you may have missed. It's not really a contest. Please use a dedicated thread for that.

 

[Randomfan]

Imran. Donald. Lillee. Holding. Garner. Akram
I have them roughly in the same tier.
Maybe I have push Imran lower down in my list.

I find it hard to exactly rank players unless I have seen their career or there is a clear difference in outputs. I have only seen Wasim and Donald from this list. Donald over Wasim for me. That's based on their output and also based on seeing them live. But both are in the same tier.

I used to put Wasim as the best from Pakistan before I looked closely at home and away performance separately against better teams. Wasim literally averages 26-28 against top 4-5 oppositions(as a group) home and away both. NZ elevates Wasim but NZ was 7th best team in early 90s when Wasim was at his peak. After looking closely I do put IK as the best Pakistani pacer in the test format.

Lillee was seen as the best in 70s with very good away record as well but with limited away venues. But those were top oppositions. Holding/Garner have very good away record as well.

Anyway, you are not wrong to have them some where togther. I don't know how to put exact order of all these bowlers. If I do it one time then I am sure at another time order it will look totally different for me due to learning something new. For example, if you were not aware of such a massive gap between home and away for IK then that's new information for you. I learn plenty of new information for older era by reading comments of others. For palyers, I have watched it's a lot easier to rate and rank them.

 

[DrWolverine]

For palyers, I have watched it's a lot easier to rate and rank them.

Even for players whose entire career I have seen, I learn new things. @subshakerz tells a lot about how Lara struggled against fast bowlers.

I analysed his statistics and was shocked to find he has never scored a century against any ATG fast bowler except McGrath and past-his-prime Pollock.

 

[Randomfan]

Even for players whose entire career I have seen, I learn new things. @subshakerz tells a lot about how Lara struggled against fast bowlers.

I analysed his statistics and was shocked to find he has never scored a century against any ATG fast bowler except McGrath and past-his-prime Pollock.

Yah, I don't recall Lara scoring a ton against Donald, Wasim and Waqar. But seeing them live you can make some judgement as well and that's not possible if you have not watched them live.

 

[DrWolverine]

Yah, I don't recall Lara scoring a ton against Donald, Wasim and Waqar. But seeing them live you can make some judgement as well and that's not possible if you have not watched them live.

I know Lara failed horribly against Donald but don’t remember much about how he did Akram & Waqar.

I always found it strange since he was doing quite well against them in the shorter format of the game.

 

[DrWolverine]

Same with Steyn.

I rate him both highly and sometimes not much.

I do not think I have seen any ATG leaking runs like him but I also remember him running through a line up especially on Day 3 in India in that Nagpur match.

 

[subshakerz]

I know Lara failed horribly against Donald but don’t remember much about how he did Akram & Waqar.

I always found it strange since he was doing quite well against them in the shorter format of the game.

Mostly before his eye problem emerged in 1994.